News: GOTM 13 Pre-Game Discussion

[slowrider]

ISTM that both strategies are good ones, and either strategy, if used effectively, could give an extremely good game (Assuming you are going for a victory type that requires lots of science. Obviously, if you are going for early conquest/domination, then your settler/axeman strategy is likely to be best).

In studying a lot of the top games (highest scores, fastest finishes, etc.) my observation is in agreement with yours, that early conquest/domination doesn't rely much at all on science and focuses on an early and relentless axeman, horse archer, etc. rush.

The highest scoring games are also typically conquest/domination but they have a completely different approach. In these games there is a furious race through the tech tree to strategic units such as Macemen/Knights then Grenadiers/Calvary. The end points seem to be Chemistry, Military Trad and Biology and they get there fast! After Biology everything in sight is farmed (shooting pop through the roof) while the last few civs are crushed. How they race through the tech tree is simply astonishing and is applicable to most other victory types. Conceptually I'm beginning to understand what they're doing but I'm light-years away from mastering in practice.

 

[slowrider]

I played also about 10 random starts with the same setting and discovered this (probably well known):

I have played the first 20 turns and then looked into worldbuilder:

1) The only civs which are able to outtech you to a religion (start with myst) are India, HC, Saladin, Monte.
2) Saladin and HC almost never techs first towards religion
3) India almost ever researches meditation (Asoka less than Gandhi)
4) Out of the 10 games 5 didn't include India or monte and I was able to reach budhism working a 2/1/1 tile.
5) Out of the 5 games which included Asoka, gandhi, Monte I was beaten to meditation working a 2/0/2 tile, but I would found hinduism in 4 of those cases. In 1 out of the 10 games both budhism and hind were FIDL. this was due to gandhi and monte both going for a different religion.

So I'm heading towards poly.

In the game we're about to play, say you want to go for Meditation. You check the demographics screen and see your GNP is #1 but tied with the "rival best". Lets say this rival is also spiritual and going for Mediation ... who does the tie go to?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

In the game we're about to play, say you want to go for Meditation. You check the demographics screen and see your GNP is #1 but tied with the "rival best". Lets say this rival is also spiritual and going for Mediation ... who does the tie go to?

The AI gets it. IIRC, on monarch, the AI gets 10% more science for its beakers than you do. Not only that but its cities require less food to grow, so if you're both working the same amount of food, its capital will grow to size 2 (potential for more commerce) a couple of turns before yours does.

The only way you'll get the early religion is either if you're lucky enough to have no other AI that starts with mysticism and is researching the same thing, or if you sacrifice production to work the lake (2 commerce) and the AI is working a tile that has zero or 1 commerce, then you should be just getting enough additional commerce to beat the AI. I think (not absolutely certain) that you get your turn first, so if you do discover the tech on the same turn as the AI, you'll get the religion.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Well why play another test game when you can pick up the real game? It's already the 30th, anyway...

So I can be better prepared! (And I was hoping to play one last night...)

 

[lroumen]

Settling ivory could be a good idea (although I doubt it) but doing it on turn one is way too risky production wise. You can’t walk away from two of only three known production tiles in the original starting position and blindly hope for replacement north of the woods as you press the build button. Turn two could make sense but only after moving the settler north to peek beyond the forest.

Well, I'm not a great tactician so it'll probably backfire on me.

My thought was that the +1 hammer in the capital would give an early bonus on production for an early warrior and workboat and after that I will be creating a worker which does fine with just food tiles.

After that I won't care much about production because I will be chopping the forests and create a settler to sit on a better capital spot. The current spot will then be developed into an early science/gold city, if AIs permit me and perhaps some sacrifices will allow me to insert a library into the site. Additionally, the hills north-west when mined would allow a second production site when needed to build that library.

It also means that I would never need to defend the ivory from raiding barbarians or AIs and I can focus on city protection for the first few years.

 

[Erkon]

My thought was that the +1 hammer in the capital would give an early bonus on production for an early warrior and workboat and after that I will be creating a worker which does fine with just food tiles.

In my test game, i earned eight turns in work boat production (15 instead of 23) and I lost zero turns in research by settling on the Ivory. You can't work the silk during the first 8 turns (until border expansion) but you get the workboat out 8 turns earlier, and the clam provides 2 commerce (compared to 1 commerce from silk). End result = 0 diff in commerce. I don't know what happens if you start with a warrior though.

But we all play differently, so I guess you should follow your instinct and learn from that instead of listening to me

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The problem I have with settling on the ivory, and the reason I probably won't do it (may yet change my mind), is this: Sure, in the very earliest turns, you gain the hammer/turn (and you also gain an extra forest to chop), but in the slightly longer term, you lose the 3-hammer hill-plain-forest, as well as the chance for a camped 1F/3H/1C ivory square. Both of those represent a significant loss to potential early-game production. There may of course be something to the north to compensate but that's not guaranteed.

 

[lroumen]

Thanks for the insights. I think I may gamble the early production and see where the early expansion takes me.

Or I stick with the settler spot which due to the extra grassland compared to coastal may result in a better science city (cottage wise).

Dilemmas...

 

[Khalid]

The only way you'll get the early religion is either if you're lucky enough to have no other AI that starts with mysticism and is researching the same thing, or if you sacrifice production to work the lake (2 commerce) and the AI is working a tile that has zero or 1 commerce, then you should be just getting enough additional commerce to beat the AI. I think (not absolutely certain) that you get your turn first, so if you do discover the tech on the same turn as the AI, you'll get the religion.

I think it is usual that the first settlers start near fresh water source, mainly river. fro the test games, I checked in the worldbuilder and usualy 3/4 of the AI started on a river, some with FP. So the only way to found budhism is I think if there aren't civs starting with mysticism, which I doubt.

 

[Khalid]

I've played a few test games and as long as we can make a decent number of contacts I am leaning towards a research path of Med > Priest > Writing > Alpha (trade for all the worker/early techs) > Monarchy > Feudalism from Oracle. This has worked in 3 of 4 test games so far the one time it didn't work someone built the Oracle around 1300BC. I mainly worked the clam, lake, and spice tiles to get to Alpha as soon as possible as it takes quite awhile to research it. I need to try again using a Scientist or 2 after Writing to see how much that speeds it up.

I am still formulating a plan for if there are only a couple of contacts by the time I finish Priesthood or Writing. I think at that point I would probably go to the worker techs and switch to taking MC with the Oracle.

That's an interesting plan. I wasn't considering researching Alpha early, due to lack of commerce. It was a good move in GOTM12 with the mined gold hill. But after some thinking I might try it as well, though I will go for poly to get a religion by the way.

You won't be able to use the scientist as it requires the library. You won't be able to build it yourself and you won't have BW to either whip it or chop it.

 

[siggboy]

I will settle in place. I agree with DynamicSpirit that there's probably a hidden resource somwhere, either the grassland or the hill NW. So with 2 hills, ivory and forests the city is a good eary production city.

Even without any additional, still hidden, resource, I think the spot is decent enough to found in place. Somebody else here put it quite well when he mentioned that we are probably spoiled by previous games (I've only played the last one with two gold hills in place, but please don't tell me you are looking for something comparable to that on this map...).

I hope we have horses and iron nearby and I won't end like in GOTM12 when I cheared to have knights, but didn't have iron to build them

Well, you could have explored SW of capital with a galley to find the iron near that crap island there, at least by the time you had discovered Guilds . (Or am I missing something, I didn't settle there until very late. But this is GOTM13, not 12, anyway...).

--Sigi

 

[siggboy]

My settler will move N and NW on the first turn to take a look. Then he can keep on wandering. Or he might come back to one of the tiles that have been discussed, settling on turn 3. Not a big loss on Epic, and I will settle on the best spot, making an informed decision.
I will lose my chances to have an early religion, so what?

I don't understand why everybody is so pessimistic about getting an early R if they make a move or two before settling. Surely, your chances of missing out on ERs will be a bit higher in this case, but "losing your chances" -- I don't think so. This is only Monarch, and you have Meditation already and are near that lake. Maybe I would go straight for Hinduism after taking two turns before settling, but IMHO your chances are really good to get to it first on this difficulty (with the lake or possibly something even better to the west).

I've just played a WL game on Monarch with Genghis, and when the first hut gave me Meditation, I went straight for Hinduism, got it and Buddhism only came several turns later (Gandhi). I did not have a commerce bonus available (only the 10 beakers you are guaranteed to have from any reasonable position). This is just to illustrate my point about early religions on Monarch.

Confucianism is very easy to get on Monarch, it spreads faster and it brings a free missionary.

This is interesting, does it really spread faster than the earlier Rs? Why is it easy to get on Monarch (only compared to higher difficulties or is there any other point I'm missing)?

On the other hand, I would like to suggest that the HOF MOD eliminates the possibility to see the blue circles, specially if it is true that they use information the human can not yet see.

I would really like to know if this is really true (the bit about the hidden information). Apart from that I think the blue circle suggestions are a lot of crap more often than not...

--Sigi

 

[siggboy]

Maybe I'm wrong as I didn't play so many maps, but i have never seen a map without a blue circle around my settler. Once I played an ice age map and there was ice every 10 squares around the settler, but the fat cross of the settler had grassland, river, 3 clams, plains hill and some forests and some 1 or 2 other resources.

I don't remember if there was a blue circle, but lately I started a Huge/Temperate/Continents game, and the computer put me on the south pole, with only ice to the north and a bit of tundra to the east, plus an icelocked fish to the SW. The position was just plain horrible. I made a few moves to the norths with my settler, and it would have taken me about 5 or 6 just to get to a starting position with no Ice/Tundra in the fat cross. Of course I regenerated the map, I'm not a masochist .

Only to refute your argument that the computer always puts the human into a decent position. Most of the time is does, but it's not guaranteed. And the blue circles are a load of BS anyway in most cases .

--Sigi

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I don't understand why everybody is so pessimistic about getting an early R if they make a move or two before settling. Surely, your chances of missing out on ERs will be a bit higher in this case, but "losing your chances" -- I don't think so.

Strictly speaking you are correct in that it is a reduction in probability rather than going to no chance at all. It is nevertheless a very significant reduction in probability - big enough I think to justify the pessimism. Thing is, your most dangerous competitor for this is an AI that starts with mysticism and chooses to research polytheism or meditation first. The AI has the monarch-level bonuses which will give it a couple of turns lead over you in getting the tech. You can counter that by using the highest-possible commerce squares (eg. the lake) in the hope that the AI is using a production, not a commerce square. If that's the case, then you'll win, but there'll probably be only a turn or two in it, and in that case (which is very plausible) spending those couple of turns at the beginning exploring will very likely make the difference.

(about confucianism)

This is interesting, does it really spread faster than the earlier Rs? Why is it easy to get on Monarch (only compared to higher difficulties or is there any other point I'm missing)?

I'm not aware that it does. I think the higher spread is entirely a consequence of starting with the free missionary. (Plus once he's seeded the 2nd city, there's more cities it can spread from. As for Confucianism being easy to get: Basically, if you beeline straight for the Oracle, you will usually build it on monarch, then you can claim COL/confucianism as the free tech (as long as you had researched writing). It's incredibly unlikely at that point that anyone else will have already researched COL the slow way.

I would really like to know if this is really true (the bit about the hidden information). Apart from that I think the blue circle suggestions are a lot of crap more often than not...

Well my own testing with worldbuilder certainly seems to indicate that blue circles take account of terrain you haven't yet explored, and from the discussion here, it seems other people have independently come to the same conclusion.

 

[siggboy]

My experience is that founding a religion is more valuable for space race and especially fast, mostly peaceful diplo games. As I know you know already, founding religions is an optional and often not optimal strategy for cultural games.

But what if we want to win Culturally and find out that before/without Astronomy we won't get access to enough religions (to pursue the Cathedral path, at least)?
(In my current Monarch game all the religions up to Taoism got founded on the other continent. Unfortunately I was not the one to discover Taoism (it was Mansa Musa, ouch, and by now the entire continent is Taoist, and he's got the shrine...). This is just to show a scenario where no own religions can hurt for reasons other than going for cultural win). When going for culture, I at least want to know if I'm isolated before deciding on how many religions of my own I'm going to found, so in this case, with the lake, I guess if playing cultural you absolutely should go for at least two early Rs. Just my two cents (I haven't decided yet what strategy I'm going to pursue, maybe not cultural, just did in GOTM12).

--Sigi

 

[Khalid]

Strictly speaking you are correct in that it is a reduction in probability rather than going to no chance at all. It is nevertheless a very significant reduction in probability

After the couple test games I would say that moving your settler for couple of turns (3-4) has no effect on your ability to found an ER.

Either there is an AI who start with mysticism and chooses the research the religion, or there is not such an AI. In the first case the AI will beat you to it also if you work a 2c tile by 1 turn. In the second case the 4 turns won't matter.

(confucianism)

I think that it spreads faster. nothing to support, just a couple of examples where I had settled more cities and confu spreaded to all of them within a couple of turns. And I don't experience this with the ER. But it might as well depend on the available trade routes.

 

[Conquistador 63]

This is interesting, does it really spread faster than the earlier Rs? Why is it easy to get on Monarch (only compared to higher difficulties or is there any other point I'm missing)?

I am afraid I don't have a link to the relevant thread, but this has been discussed in another GOTM pre-game and it is said that the XML files show a higher 'natural' spreading rate for the later religions, in some 3 tiers (Budd, Hind, Jud low; Conf & Christ med; Tao & Islam high). Nothing very meaningful though, something like .5/.6/.7 rates. Maybe the experts can confirm this.

 

[godotnut]

But what if we want to win Culturally and find out that before/without Astronomy we won't get access to enough religions (to pursue the Cathedral path, at least)?
(In my current Monarch game all the religions up to Taoism got founded on the other continent. Unfortunately I was not the one to discover Taoism (it was Mansa Musa, ouch, and by now the entire continent is Taoist, and he's got the shrine...). This is just to show a scenario where no own religions can hurt for reasons other than going for cultural win). When going for culture, I at least want to know if I'm isolated before deciding on how many religions of my own I'm going to found, so in this case, with the lake, I guess if playing cultural you absolutely should go for at least two early Rs. Just my two cents (I haven't decided yet what strategy I'm going to pursue, maybe not cultural, just did in GOTM12).

--Sigi

Well, yeah, if isolated on a small continent or an island, then early religions might be preferable (I did say "often not optimal" ). Still, I've found that even in these situations, you can make up for the lack of early religions by going for Confuscism, Christianity, and Taoism (preferably, Islam if not). Three religions is enough to achieve a solid early cultural win if you build the major religious buildings early.

There really are quite a few variables--map size, type, presence or lack of religious neighbors, randomness in religious spread, difficulty level etc.--so that no one path is optimal all the time, obviously. And our game here is quite ambiguous in this respect--middling difficulty, unpredictable fractal map--so that it's really hard to say before starting what will work best.

But if you can win without founding early religions--and have the luck or the strategic acumen to have one or two of them spread to you--then you are probably in a better position than if you found them yourself, since you can focus on other important early techs. Of course, if it turns out you are alone on a continent, for example, then you will likely regret not going for Hindu>Judaism>Christianity.

I haven't decided what victory condition to go for yet, myself. It's hard to decide because there are so many games out there for which we don't have results yet. If I knew that one of my recent games was a medal winner (I think I may have won the fastest diplo in WOTM2, for example, but I'm not sure), then I wouldn't go for that condition. I think I may wait a while before getting into this game to see if any results get posted for previous games.

By the way, does anyone know if the ratio for the number of temples needed to construct cathedrals and such increases on a large map the way it does from a small to a standard map? I very seldom play on larger than standard maps and haven't encountered this situation. This would be good information to know for anyone considering a cultural win.

 

[Thrallia]

cathedrals still require 3 temples per cathedral, however, national wonders such as Forbidden Palace and Oxford University now require 7 of their respective required buildings and I would assume the others(Red Cross, IronWorks) do as well. The Palace still requires just 4 cities to move though.

 

[man-erg]

Hi all. Despite losing GOTM 12, which was apparently really easy, I'm returning for more punishment and hopefully improvement on GOTM 13.

As this is only my 4th full game, I'd really like some broad, strategic advice. I'm wondering how you decide what victory to go for. Is it based on the start map position or a strategy that you're familier with? I'm thinking of going for the spaceship as this is the victory I know best.

I've started a couple of test games, using the same set up conditions but random map, which has given me some ideas. Firstly, I shall be starting at Adventurer, as Monarch level is punching way above my weight

Also, I'm planning to be more war-like than usual. In both test games I was next to Monty, who continually attacked me so I've got a lot better at warmongering. Maybe foolish, but I think I can challenge the AI best at battling, rather than city production.

My plan is to emphasise military techs, build at most 4 cities, maybe get attacked which will strengthen my units, then choose the right time to expand by conquest. Maybe get Conquistador ASAP.

Any advice gratefully received.....