News: GOTM 25 Pre-Game discussion

[BLubmuz]

Apparently I'm in the minority as I greatly prefer Epic games to Normal.

I join you for Epic, and i want to put marathon on the table, too.
IMHO Epic is the correct (closest to reality) speed for CIV, marathon is better for the human and is not (completely) true it's longer than Epic, unless you go for a time victory, of course.

 

[da_Vinci]

What is the outcome you want? I suggest you agree the what first, and then we can work on the how. But that's not how logical people like our comunity really like to work - they're problem solvers who are solution focused.

ainwood is saying that we need to start with a "vision statement" that describes the destination we seek (or the state we want to achieve). If there is not consensus on that, there is no point in debating the mechanics of achieving various ends.

So here is a shot: We want an XOTM system that:

1. Encourages participation of the elite players.
2. Encourages participation of moderate level players
3. Encourages participation of beginners.
4. Allows comparability of games
5. Optimizes learning for all
6. Is fun for everyone who participates.
7. Does not overwhelm the staff ( )
8. (add your own)

Some of these goals are potentially in opposition: what encourages elite may scare off beginners. If the answer to that is tiers of games, then comparability suffers the more the tiers are different.

It may come down to finding consensus on goals, then a consensus on their relative importance (weighting the goals). Maybe comparability is less important than participation?

Finally, a particular game may focus on some goals and not others, and the next game may reverse this. Might be the only way to have "something for everyone" over the system, if not in the individual games.

dV

 

[Jasonc]

ainwood is saying that we need to start with a "vision statement" that describes the destination we seek (or the state we want to achieve). If there is not consensus on that, there is no point in debating the mechanics of achieving various ends.

So here is a shot: We want an XOTM system that:

1. Encourages participation of the elite players.
2. Encourages participation of moderate level players
3. Encourages participation of beginners.
4. Allows comparability of games
5. Optimizes learning for all
6. Is fun for everyone who participates.
7. Does not overwhelm the staff ( )
8. (add your own)

I like this approach. I would make a systematic Rating System part of the primary vision. This would help achieve #1, 2, 3, 4 and possibly 5 and 6. Here is my attempt at a vision for this:

A systematic rating system that should rank players into groups based on their past experience with XOTM. It will reward experienced players through bragging rights and awards. An 'Elite' win will give more xp than a 'beginner' win. It will allow beginners to compete against each other and strive to advance to the next level. It will not punish players for having one bad game. It will allow all rating levels to play the same game by enforcing use of the appropriate game type (challenger, adventurer, etc).

 

[nano2]

I am new to this, but to start i think i will scout out what is better: staying still, 1W or 1NE.
still pondering on wether or not to go for a religion or hope to conquer a religious city (like that will happen, ha)

Help! I can't get it to work for loading the Save file. I have played GotM's befor but not finished. It says that the file in the Mod folder is protected. anyone know what my problem is? I think the adventurer class might be bugged?

i go to single player> load>mods folder (where i put it) and load it

 

[DaviddesJ]

marathon is better for the human and is not (completely) true it's longer than Epic, unless you go for a time victory, of course.

I don't understand this at all. Marathon will always take much longer than Epic to play, how can it not? Just as Epic takes longer than Normal.

A significant amount of the time spent playing Civ is just the bookkeeping that comes with each turn (checking each city's production, moving each unit, etc.). This all scales with game speed.

 

[BLubmuz]

I don't understand this at all. Marathon will always take much longer than Epic to play, how can it not? Just as Epic takes longer than Normal.

A significant amount of the time spent playing Civ is just the bookkeeping that comes with each turn (checking each city's production, moving each unit, etc.). This all scales with game speed.

The "partially" is the key, but let me do a quick analysis:
- For the initial 50-60 turns or so, you need only to hit enter twice the times you do @ Epic, then some +30 secs for play.
- often in the early game you have to hit enter some time more than Epic, again few seconds added
- early/mid game: you can't have much in terms of cities and units, and the difference is still some more hit on enter
- mid game: if you go for a peaceful VC the difference is still low, if you go warmogering, the time to move your units etc. is the same i.e. if you got to organize a stack of, say, 20 units move, fight and so on does NOT change.
- mid/late game same as above
- late game: if you went warmogering and you are still here, you have to improve if you went peaceful (SS) is the moment where you notice the bigger difference .

But, given the same map, conditions and goals, i can affirm that the difference between Epic and Marathon is not more than the 10-15% in terms of playtime.
I compared 2 official submissions of mine in the HoF (chieftain SS, absolute record with the 3rd place) the first is on Mara 3h 16m, the second on Epic, 4h 33m (probably i forgot to hit "pause" during a ... pause)

 

[AlanH]

I am new to this, but to start i think i will scout out what is better: staying still, 1W or 1NE.
still pondering on wether or not to go for a religion or hope to conquer a religious city (like that will happen, ha)

Help! I can't get it to work for loading the Save file. I have played GotM's befor but not finished. It says that the file in the Mod folder is protected. anyone know what my problem is? I think the adventurer class might be bugged?

i go to single player> load>mods folder (where i put it) and load it

You should put the game start file in your \My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Saves\Single\ folder, not in Mods.

In addition, if you have not installed Beyond the Sword then you need to swap one DLL file in your Civ4 installation. Firaxis changed this file when they released Beyond the Sword, and so to avoid having to distribute more start files, we need you to update your Civ4 to match. So, if you don't have Beyond the Sword, please follow the instructions in this post to do this update.

 

[ArcadicGamer]

ainwood is saying that we need to start with a "vision statement" that describes the destination we seek (or the state we want to achieve). If there is not consensus on that, there is no point in debating the mechanics of achieving various ends.

So here is a shot: We want an XOTM system that:

1. Encourages participation of the elite players.
2. Encourages participation of moderate level players
3. Encourages participation of beginners.
4. Allows comparability of games
5. Optimizes learning for all
6. Is fun for everyone who participates.
7. Does not overwhelm the staff ( )
8. (add your own)

Some of these goals are potentially in opposition: what encourages elite may scare off beginners. If the answer to that is tiers of games, then comparability suffers the more the tiers are different.

It may come down to finding consensus on goals, then a consensus on their relative importance (weighting the goals). Maybe comparability is less important than participation?

Finally, a particular game may focus on some goals and not others, and the next game may reverse this. Might be the only way to have "something for everyone" over the system, if not in the individual games.

dV

With the start of a BOTM imminant, I think it would become easier to make a game for everyone to enjoy. While the format is still in the air, it could easily be made so that a GOTM would be @ Prince, WOTM @ Immortal, Epic, and BTSOTM @ Monarch Epic. The 3 games as a whole block provide every skill level a game to play and have fun with.

I can also suggest that epic/marathon XOTM's could do a 6 week deadline, while normal/epic could keep the month timeline.

 

[DaviddesJ]

But, given the same map, conditions and goals, i can affirm that the difference between Epic and Marathon is not more than the 10-15% in terms of playtime.

And I can affirm that for me it's a factor of two, at least. I can find it quite plausible that we play very differently. For me, most of the time is spent checking and adjusting every city each turn, that time is basically proportional to game speed.

 

[da_Vinci]

Seems like Alan favors consolidating the XOTM system changes discussion into the "BTS GOTM starting next week?" thread:

The thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=246805

The relevant post: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6212172&postcount=102

So perhaps best to continue the XOTM system discussion over there ...

dV

 

[Thrallia]

I could certainly use some help.

When I load the GOTM25 save, everything seems to be fine until the very end -- the HOF mod (which I installed some time ago and have been using for several games now). Then I get this message (and the game won't load):

The save file you have selected is protected to ensure that the assets in your file have not been changed

I have not installed (don't own) BTS. I have been able to load and play the test save offered in the pre-game thread.

As per the GOTM instructions, I switched out the dll's in both my CivIV vanilla and Warlords assets folders. I may have done something wrong, but I've no clue what. If anyone has had a similar error message and knows how to deal with it, your assistance would be greatly appreciated.

GOTM25 requires a new HOF mod from the one you've been using, try downloading it from the first post in the GOTM25 saves available thread...once you install that you should be good to go.

 

[Nictel]

hmmm, I normally play Noble with varying outcomes and have just played my first prince game today. But I'll give it a shot, as I want to start competing in these GOTM games. Even though I'm not that good. (Read: My best result was Ivan the Terrible) But with the help of these tips here I hope to atleast stay alive the entire game... I normally play BTS though and might forget on a few things. I really hope BTS is there next week.

I wanted to give another sound than the complains about it being to hard, firstly because it's fun being beaten by the AI in glorious fashion secondly I like a challenge and I think it could help with improving my game.

 

[BLubmuz]

And I can affirm that for me it's a factor of two, at least. I can find it quite plausible that we play very differently. For me, most of the time is spent checking and adjusting every city each turn, that time is basically proportional to game speed.

Yes, we have different styles of play. If you play EXACTLY in this way, you're right.
If you play as i do, cheking from time to time i'm right.

This can explain why you probably play better than me.
But this way is a job, not a game (personal interpretation, of course).

 

[oyzar]

I am a perfectionist and couldn't live with only checking stuff once in a while . I think alot of other players feel the same. Maybe some of the reason i don't like the slower speeds.

 

[Nictel]

I have a few questions about the HOF mod, what are the correct settings for it? Because I'm afraid I made a few mistakes. I couldn't find a page where the correct settings are so I'll ask it here.

- Does autolog has to be on?
- When I start up the game, the settings tab says that the game isn't compatible with HOF because lock modified settings isn't on.
- Are there any other settings that have to be on or off?

 

[AlanH]

- Autolog can be on or off according to your preferences. However, I note that someone has reported that it is not working correctly in this version of the mod, so it may not be very useful. I have not verified this report yet, however.

- The warning is displayed because of a small error in the GOTM 25 start file configuration. Normally that warning is suppressed for GOTM files. It is not a problem for your game, but if you wish to hide it you can do so in the HOF3 Options tab.

- You are free to choose the HoF Mod settings that suit you.