News: GOTM 37 Pre-game Discussion

[Erkon]

I spot a plains forest hill NE of the gem and a lake N of the cows. The visible are has enough food for two cities, so perhaps 2N is a good site for the capital and a second city on the PH east of the warrior? Or would it be better to run one city with lots of food surplus to enable a proper specialist economy? With a small map, the capital becomes more important, yes?

EDIT: crosspost with DS

Challenger Class Equalisers:

1. Jungle!: The 5 no-hill forests around the settler are turned into jungle.

Could you please confirm that the settler tile is included in the 5 forests that are jungelized, yes? If my gazing skills have not diminished I believe there's a forest 2N, but that tile is still forest for challenger, yes?

 

[godotnut]

I believe we're talking about Jonathan Swift here. The Hulliver dude, so to say.

Right, and it was made famous in part through the title of John Kennedy Toole's comic masterpiece, A Confederacy of Dunces.

Looking forward to Jesusin's first map. And at my favorite setting too, Immortal. And with a fun leader with fairly strong traits for this setting.

Not sure what victory condition to go for yet. Interested in seeing the results of the last GOTM first. I may try a religious/military hybrid strategy with frequent civic shifts. I remember Isabella serving well for this kind of game from some of my favorite games from a long time back.

I agree with DS that a look up North may be in order, saving that plains hill just NE of the sugar for my next city. But then again, that would lessen my chances of early religions, so I will have to think about it.

 

[Lehm]

After some map regenerating it´s hard to say what our continent will be like. It could be a really small one with no opportunity to reach other continents by galley where it could be wise to plan ahead carefully as DynamicSpirit already does. But it could also be that there is huge land in all directions. Due to the difficulty level I guess Jesusin gave us 2 close trading partners and a peninsula to have enough time for expanding. I just can´t imagine he wants us to dislike him from the very beginning for creating the toughest maps ever.

That means I will settle in place because there will be enough space for other cities and no waste of close recources.

 

[PaulisKhan]

1 warrior SE
2 evaluate situation
3 settler 2N
4 re-evaluate situation
5 regret moving at all
6 ????

 

[Htadus]

After some map regenerating it´s hard to say what our continent will be like. It could be a really small one with no opportunity to reach other continents by galley where it could be wise to plan ahead carefully as DynamicSpirit already does. But it could also be that there is huge land in all directions. ...............................................
...............That means I will settle in place because there will be enough space for other cities and no waste of close recources.

At the moment, I am with you in settling in place. I do not have a great deal of confidence that the larger land mass is to the north. Settling in place will still allow me to build at least 4 more cities even though they may be sub-par.

I guess I will settle in place and build a boat slowly until Buddhism is founded...by us or AI, then switch to the PH. I might go for a settler before a worker if I chose to chase two religions.

As for the end game, it will be either Culture or Conquest..........or both.

 

[jesusin]

Could you please confirm that the settler tile is included in the 5 forests that are jungelized, yes? If my gazing skills have not diminished I believe there's a forest 2N, but that tile is still forest for challenger, yes?

There are 5 unfogged tiles with forest and without hill. One of them is the one under the settler. Those 5 tiles are turned into jungle in the challenger save.

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Right, and it was made famous in part through the title of John Kennedy Toole's comic masterpiece, A Confederacy of Dunces.

Indeed! My favorite novel... very dark comedy and uniquely New Orleans. If you haven't yet, give it a read.

MF

 

[JungleIII]

So your heading sentence translates to: So much it mounts, mounts so much, Isabel as Fernando...

HUH? Must lose something in the translation... HUH?

 

[JungleIII]

Welcome Jesusin as one of our newest moderators in charge of XOTM games.

Couldn't help notice the link to you personally... You would be very familiar with Spain; You tend to like Spiritual as one of the leader traits for Cultural victories; You like a challenging game and with this skill level and map... it will challenge.

Not knowing what could complicate the game as presented - nasty neighbours, no one around on our custom continent, etc - I think I will only be able to survive if I take the route of a Cultural victory and HOPE for a religious victory along the way. I'm fairly sure military domination is out of the question with this map and level and that isn't by chance

I guess I'll have to research: Poly, Hunting, Archery, Anim Husbandry, Mining and Priest and go for the Oracle by turn 65... any longer and the A.I. will get it. That will probably be my only WW and I will do everything I can to catch up to the A.I. with Alphabet, unless I am alone. Then settle in for the long slog to Drama, Music, Liberalism...

I hope you left some goodie huts in the game... I need something to look forward to at this level... Bloody 'ell - there were Barb Archers wandering around at turn 30 in my test game, and my competitors had already founded second cities....

 

[jesusin]

So your heading sentence translates to: So much it mounts, mounts so much, Isabel as Fernando...

HUH? Must lose something in the translation... HUH?

Great direct translation! The sentence isn't easy to understand to a modern Spanish speaker, either.

Isabel, ruler of the kingdom of Castilla, and Fernando, ruler of the kingdom of Aragon, got married and thus what we know today as the Spanish kingdom was formed. The sentence means that there was not any preeminence between them, both had exactly 50% of the power. The fact that she was a woman didn't mean that Castilla should be subdued by Aragon. Note that the "equality" part of the sentence is doubled.

 

[Lehm]

Great direct translation! The sentence isn't easy to understand to a modern Spanish speaker, either.

Isabel, ruler of the kingdom of Castilla, and Fernando, ruler of the kingdom of Aragon, got married and thus what we know today as the Spanish kingdom was formed. The sentence means that there was not any preeminence between them, both had exactly 50% of the power. The fact that she was a woman didn't mean that Castilla should be subdued by Aragon. Note that the "equality" part of the sentence is doubled.

Now I get it! Like JungleIII I tried to translate it directly but my spanish doesn´t seem to be good enough. Well, thank you for the explanation.

@ JungleIII:

I ran a couple of test games now and except 1 time the barbs were definitly a problem. I checked the settings several times because I couldn´t believe I am NOT playing with raging barbs as it seemed to be. I hope they will still fight me in those test games when I am already playing the GOTM without them.

 

[Niklas]

There are 5 unfogged tiles with forest and without hill. One of them is the one under the settler. Those 5 tiles are turned into jungle in the challenger save.

Actually there are 6 unfogged tiles with forest and without hill. 1 is beneath the settler, 2 and 3 are S and SW of him, 4 is E of him, 5 is W of the Cows, and 6 is SE of the eastern Sugar. So which one is spared?

 

[Erkon]

... I'm fairly sure military domination is out of the question with this map and level and that isn't by chance ...

Sorry if I misunderstand you here, but why would conquest/domination be out of the question? I think the opposite: if some AIs are on another continent/landmass you don't need to worry for their early DoW. And with only a few AIs in your starting area, you don't have to worry that much for one of them becoming superstrong while your grabbing land of someone else.
The main drawback from a military point of view with this setting is the normal speed, but that is compensated for the small map. A simple strategy for this kind of game is to expand peacefully with a few cities, and then by conquest once the opportunity arise. Just keep track of the economy. Once you're at ~8 cities you can choose either to go for conquest, domination or space race. I plan for the latter since this map setting is perfect for space practice due to the low real time demands

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Sorry if I misunderstand you here, but why would conquest/domination be out of the question? I think the opposite:

I agree. And would add that the lower number of AIs (and I'd guess some are likely to be separated by oceans too) vastly reduces the opportunity to keep up in tech via generous tech-trading compared to a normal-size map - that further favours the conquest/domination option.

I plan for the latter since this map setting is perfect for space practice due to the low real time demands

We evidently have very different playing styles. I always find spacerace quicker to play than domination or conquest(micromanaging cities takes less me time than micromanaging warring units, by a sufficient margin to more than compensate for the increased numbers of turns).

Out of interest, any thoughts on worker-stealing? I'm thinking about it but a little concerned that, with the AI starting with two workers on this level, the risks may be too much: You'd have to be incredibly lucky to steal both workers at the same time, and unlike at emperor or lower levels, stealing only one is probably not going to cripple the AI. Does the risk of an angry, but still powerful, AI mean that worker-stealing is less advisible as a strategy here?

 

[jesusin]

Niklas, the farthest one is spared.

Challenger Class Equalisers:

1. Jungle!: The 5 no-hill forests around the settler are turned into jungle.

 

[Niklas]

That's what I thought, but in your attempt to make it unambiguous you actually made it more ambiguous.

 

[Erkon]

... We evidently have very different playing styles. I always find spacerace quicker to play than domination or conquest(micromanaging cities takes less me time than micromanaging warring units, by a sufficient margin to more than compensate for the increased numbers of turns).

Out of interest, any thoughts on worker-stealing?

Ahh, sorry, I was not that clear: what I meant was that spacerace on this map puts less demand on hours spent on the game compared to a standard-epic game, so this is a good opportunity to race to the stars . Not that I necessarily want a short game, but micromanaging cities for a hundred turn is not what I consider an attractive civ experience Perhaps I cant resist to kill'em all in the end

Worker steal would work fine together with starting with WB, but then you need to build a couple of warriors (or archers). So you need to plan for a worker steal in order to really take advantage of it. It's a bit risky On Vanilla it's easier since you can move the worker directly, so if the opportunity arise, I think it's a good move. But I would not plan the game around it.

 

[damnrunner]

Worker or Work boat 1st. Any thoughts?

 

[Jove]

Well, if you're going for an early religion a work boat would probably be better- you could work a sea tile and grow. Faster tech, food boost, a religion... could do worse.

 

[kcd_swede]

Well, if you're going for an early religion a work boat would probably be better- you could work a sea tile and grow. Faster tech, food boost, a religion... could do worse.

Hmmm... I'm wondering what's the point of founding an early religion on Immortal level. If you adopt it as state religion (the only way to get any benefits), you might as well just paint a target on your backside... unless you also do the work of spreading it around quickly. You might have other priorities in the early game.

In my limited experience, even if you are successful spreading your religion, the AI will switch out of your religion as soon as they found their own, most likely. Then you get all those negatives.

In a game with many AI it is often better to let AI found the religions to generate rivalry. Here, there are only 4 so maybe everybody will get at least one.

Maybe I should also mention that in Vanilla Civ4 there is no such thing as "Religious Victory".

So perhaps someone with more skill and experience could explain for me how founding an early religion could be used successfully here.