News: GOTM39 Pre-game Discussion

[DynamicSpirit]

Ta for the correction and article, Conquistador63. That's an extremely good article

However I see another problem for anyone hoping to culture-flip the barb city. Assuming those are barb city borders (I'm not 100% convinced but for the sake of argument...), the city would appear to be 3E, 2S of the settler starting spot. If you settle in-place the capital would need to hit 750 culture to take that spot, which isn't going to happen any time soon. You could reduce that to 150 culture if you settle 1S, but that means losing the pigs (and increasing the mountain-in-fat-cross count to 5), which hardly seems worth it.

 

[wwassme]

I doubt jesusin would have put us in a box with the only way out being culture flipping a barb city.

However, I could see a maze type of map (pangea based) where you could get there the long way by walking west, with the shortcut to the east being flipping the barb city. I recall a prior GOTM map (don't remember which one) which used mountains/lakes to create a maze.

 

[Deckhand]

Barbarians do flip. One of my first Warlords game was on an Oasis map. I built the Great Wall and greatly enjoyed watching my culture squeeze the neighboring barbarians. I flipped 2 or 3.

No Great Wall and No Volcanos this game.

Early archers may be a good idea. But having barbs destroy noob players in the first few centuries would be as mean as requiring a culture flip.

However, I could see a maze type of map ... I recall a prior GOTM map (don't remember which one) which used mountains/lakes to create a maze.

One (unlikely) possibility is a Maze map - with the water replaced by ice and mountains. Maybe I would need to learn to use paratroopers and airlift.

Waiting until Sunday is tough. I've finished the rest of the xOTMs. Hopefully I can win this one.

 

[kcd_swede]

Assuming those are barb city borders (I'm not 100% convinced but for the sake of argument...)

I'm with you in being less than 100% sure we are seeing a barb culture border. It would indeed be an unusual twist, since Barbs do not have cities for quite a long time at this level, and certainly would not have cultural borders already. Nobody should. Human player goes first, so nobody should be settled, esp not barbs. But worldbuilder lets the mapmaker do anything almost, so its possible. Personally, if that is a cultural border, I think I should clearly see the northern border of it since the edges are always darker than the inside territory. I don't see a clear northern border. Perhaps the dark line we see (proposed barb west border) is nothing more than a screenshot resolution issue. Ice/river/fog combo could be the cause, imho.

I think we'll get some challenges making this harder than a normal Noble level, but have doubts that this is the challenge. OTOH, I have no idea what else that dark line could be.

 

[azzaman333]

I'm 100% confident that is some sort of city there. The border cuts to the right at the tile edge, but it's difficult to see because the forest blocks it.

 

[kcd_swede]

I'm 100% confident that is some sort of city there. The border cuts to the right at the tile edge, but it's difficult to see because the forest blocks it.

It's definitely the best working assumption to start with. We'll find out soon enough. Though 3 more days is a long time to wait....

 

[Deckhand]

I'm 100% confident that is some sort of city there. The border cuts to the right at the tile edge, but it's difficult to see because the forest blocks it.

Could it be Justinian and the Byzantines? He's that same grey color.

Nope - this is Vanilla, not BtS.

 

[azzaman333]

It's too dark to be Justinian.

And anyway, this is a GotM, so the Byzantines can't possibly be in it, being Vanilla Civ 4 and all.

 

[beetle]

I know you loose the river benefits, but why not settle on the hill?

Early gems (which otherwise require iron working to clear jungle) + improved defense against nearby barbs.

 

[wwassme]

Another possibility which occurs to me is that the barb city is sealed off from the rest of the world with mountains/ice and has the only source of some strategic resource. Note the river from our starting location to the barb city, which would probably connect a city founded where the settler is located to the barb city.

 

[Deckhand]

I'm pretty sure that I've seen lines like this at the edge of the fog in some of my games. I doubt it is a culture border.
fun discussion though

[OTOH, that line is quite distinct from the tile border lines; if it' a city, i hope they are builders

[IIRC, those lines were next to ice]

 

[Deckhand]

Another possibility which occurs to me is that the barb city is sealed off from the rest of the world with mountains/ice and has the only source of some strategic resource. Note the river from our starting location to the barb city, which would probably connect a city founded where the settler is located to the barb city.

I suspect the challenge will be the map as a whole (e.g. mazelike) and not limited to our start position.

 

[darreljnz]

noob players

We prefer "strategy-challenged" players

 

[azzaman333]

I'm pretty sure that I've seen lines like this at the edge of the fog in some of my games. I doubt it is a culture border.
fun discussion though

[OTOH, that line is quite distinct from the tile border lines; if it' a city, i hope they are builders

[IIRC, those lines were next to ice]

Well, if it isn't a barbarian city, what is it?

 

[Harok]

It certainly looks like a barb border to me. The mountain range and ice leads me to believe that while they are close to our starting spot they would have to go a long way to get to us.

Not sure what to do with that starting spot, it looks pretty ugly but all the mountains, hills, forests, and jungles makes it hard to get a lot of information.

The starting spot sure does remind me of Bismark's in GotM37. What exactly does jesusin have against the Germans.

 

[Adama]

@darreljnz “Strategically challenged” I wish I had thought of that!

@the rest of us SCs :

Okay, so for us “strategy-challenged” players, let’s take stock of what we have.

Creative trait means we (“I&#8221 won’t consider Stonehenge (not even for the GPPs).

Since I need a faster Domination/Conquest win someday (to move up from page 17 of the Globies to maybe page two?), I am not sure of the best path.

Oracle slingshot or not? And if so, to what, CSvc or maybe MetalCasting?

And, I think I want to try for Pyramids. If I do the ‘mids, then by researching Masonry I think that knocks out the CS sling-thing.

A beeline for our UU ? -- too late game. And, I think it might be one of the least effective UUs; afterall, if our enemy already has tanks to make it effective…. Ugh! Not a great decision to go to war with them.

Since Poly is a pre-req for Literature (arguably one of our priorities as a Philo leader, huh?), then maybe skip Med, if we’re going for Oracle.

When to insert Mysticism into research path—it is a pre-req for Poly AND a secondary pre-req for Masonry, perhaps speeding that up later.

And since we’re getting Poly, at Noble level, how ‘bout the Parthenon? - Wow, with Philo leader and the Great Lib (GL) – which would seem to be a priority-- we’d have an awesome GP production city somewhere {on a glacier or ice-field} .

Now, there are two distinct paths. One probably leads to utter despair, frustration and agony, and the other one to a humiliating defeat by AI conquest. I sure wish I had more experience to choose wisely between those two… I am starting to get too many builds for a war-monger strategy, or am I? ‘Cause next thing I was going to say was that we needed Math and Construction for Cats, and while we were at Math, why not try the HG?

Me thinks I might need help making a choice in paths… If you wanted the Parth, ‘mids, Oracle, and GL on Noble, I assume that’s possible (?) And as a Philo leader, an early Writing tech (to run a couple of Scientists whose GPPs are doubled), seems logical.

IS that way too much to ask?

So, what’s the first 63 techs in order on the research path? I’m guessing Myst before Masonry, and AH prob before Ag. BW in there early. Then Poly & Priesthood for the Oracle. Then on to Pottery (also for a MC slingshot) and Writing (on the path to Alpha & Lit) for the early Scientists.

Oh well, you can see why they call us “strategically-challenged.” Too many ideas. None that may work. Maybe an early build of the UU would lead to early warmongering, i.e., Worker>Panzer>Panzer>Panzer>Panzer>Panzer>Panzer etc. ad nauseum. Ha!

In all seriousness (well, some seriousness), would you think a more aggressive war strategy would just skip most of the building and head to war? And when? And with what units? I.e., maybe with the MC sling, we could build a few axes, a few Swords (I/W), and soon a few Crossbows (Machinery), for the first war or two, and then on to Civ Svc for Macemen. That assumes we find no ivory for ‘phants, I guess too.

I have raised a lot more questions than I have answered. But, hey, that’s why they call me the Quintessential Noob. Sorry, darreljnz, “Quintessentially strategically challenged” just doesn’t have the same ring to it …

Just thought I might post something to talk about instead of those dark Barb civ border lines …

We still have time to discuss all of this, unfortunately, until February rolls around...


Happy Civ'ing!
Adama

 

[MacBalt]

...maybe I am spoiling part of jesusin's surprises.

Hmmm... Based on my experience trying to guess the designer's intentions in the last jesusin-GOTM, I'd say you are still about three or four barbs short of having committed anything too revolting.

 

[Deckhand]

In all seriousness (well, some seriousness), would you think a more aggressive war strategy would just skip most of the building and head to war? And when?

I suspect an early war would be difficult, i.e. if the map hinders easy access to neighbors.

Speaking of the map, maybe it's a real "skinny" world: two tile width jungled equator, 3 tiles of trees north & south, and then really big ice caps. Not interesting enough.

Adama, are you in management? regarding Techs - you want them All, Now.

 

[hellwitch]

@Adama
The strategies described in your post are not warmonger but wondermonger strategies.
The basic warmonger strategy is - worker>warrior>warrior>settler>barracks> troops>troops>....till the end of the game nothing more.
You dont need a single wonder to kill all the AIs you know.
The default tech aproach is AH or BW first>then cats>then if you can reach all the AIs or have enough for dom - get the victory, if Astro is required then you need to get GS and to lblub it and then to finish the game.

 

[kcd_swede]

@Adama
The strategies described in your post are not warmonger but wondermonger strategies.
The basic warmonger strategy is - worker>warrior>warrior>settler>barracks> troops>troops>....till the end of the game nothing more.
You dont need a single wonder to kill all the AIs you know.
The default tech aproach is AH or BW first>then cats>then if you can reach all the AIs or have enough for dom - get the victory, if Astro is required then you need to get GS and to lblub it and then to finish the game.

You make it all sound so easy! (And when my troops go on strike and start disappearing into the forests I'll wonder just waht part of your strategy I got wrong)