Nextwar + FFH2(Orbis)...

[misterhamtastic]

So I want to try to make a mod. It's based on the concept that innovation and discovery continue, even in the presence of magic. I want to make it truly epic in scope. Here is a list of concepts I want to include, and some enlightening examples.

1. Multiple techtree options.

You start heading up the techtree and decide you want to focus on magic, so you proceed to discover the techs from that tree. This opens up the magic units and buildings, but you don't get the more scientific discoveries. There will be a "trunkline" of techs that both get, just from different methods. Example: Oppenheimer is a great Archmage and uses magic to split the atom. Einstein, a non-mage, splits the atom using science. Both discover fission.

2. Pros and Cons

There will be a definite importance to the science v. magic decision. Religion will remain a secondary, but powerful, means of advance. Example: A field of infantry, cannons on one side, fireball throwing adepts on the other. One side's infantry is armed with rifles and lightweight armor, the other side has men in mystical power armor, wielding tremendous melee wepons. Who will win?

3. More powerful "generals"

An archmage makes for a good general, between their powerful support spells, combat spells, and summoning spells. A good summoner should be able to literally summon an army from the ether. On the other side, an engineer would be able to build, or direct the building of, a number of units right on the battlefield. The big units would be summoned from a city, or built, depending on your side.

Honestly, this all came from playing as the Mechanos and making my own civ, the Undead.

There are a number of smaller-scale concepts as well. Like eventually discovering true terraforming, or adventurer-like experience gathering by sitting in a border fort.

I know, this deviates from the D&D spirit. So what? This is a turn-based strategy game, not a roleplaying game, and this lends itself more to this type of thing. I may use some of this when I DM my next game. (Enchanted musket anyone?)

I welcome all thoughts, as well as any advice.

 

[misterhamtastic]

If anyone has any experience combining techtrees, let me know. I'm doing most of the planning with a spreadsheet, and don't know how to get the trees from both games without typing it all out by hand. Some techs, I have to load the game to get the 'pedia to find out just what it does. If there's a shortcut to this, I'd love to know it.

 

[Jarrema]

Hmm
for me, it sounds like something I would like to try, but I do not know if I would like it.
So, I will look at your advances at creating it...

From the other side, I'm somewhat pessimistic about whole that idea - I feel it would require a lot of work to create such world, and even mre effort to balance it (I do not like unbalanced designs)

 

[misterhamtastic]

You are right, it'll be a lot of work. I just want to play it, though, unbalanced or not. I get tired of the game ending and I'm just starting to hit Victorian era techs. I'll try for it to be balanced, but that sounds like ten times more work, all playtesting.

The techtree will be a hindrance, because I have a hard time visualizing what leads to what. I'm trying to work it out though. I have the techs on paper, now I'm putting them into the spreadsheet.

 

[Jarrema]

Ahhh
to be honest, I would prefer to see something like "Erebus into XIX century technology", then something that you described (and rather 'fantastic technology' than real, I mean something in a style of Jules Verne or Wild Wild West movie; in other words: takin Mechanos idea one step further, and for majority of civs) . But that could also be interesting

 

[misterhamtastic]

Jarrema, that's what it will kind of work out as, but time passes beyond tyhe 19th century, you know? Eventually my Zeppelin Aircraft Carrier will need to become Jet-Powered some how, right? Maybe carry some carrier specific Jets(Harriers?) as well?

Anyway, I've just finished finding out what easily translates to Orbis and what doesn't, and it turns out that it is the units which don't. I will have to start from scratch when it comes to units beyond current Orbis. That's ok, though. I need the unitgraphics more than anything.

Anybody got insight on the techtree, btw? Is there a program which will let me do my dependencies visually outside of Civ4? If not, can someone explain the x,y tech thing to me? If tech a is at 1,1 and b goes directly below it with some extra space, it should be at 1, what? 2 seems too close, and even 3 does as well. Trying it over and over by starting a game will take forever, but I'll do it if I have to.

 

[misterhamtastic]

Still working, I have everything laid out in my spreadsheet and freemind. Now to gut the xmls.

BTW, I take a med which ruins my short-term memory. I am noting everything down here and in my spreadsheet so that when someone says something and I forget what I was doing, when I do come back, I just read it and catch up!

Thank god for technology.

 

[misterhamtastic]

Not much today, like I was just spinning my wheels. I couldn't settle on one thing to work on, so I accomplished nothing at all.

Well, I came up with what I consider some interesting concepts. Here they are for your enjoyment:

1. Terraforming

I know it's not THAT big a deal, but having the abilityt to turn mountains into molehills and vice-versa would come in handy, and does exist/has existed. I know there's an airport on a man-made island in Tokyo, the Niagra river was shifted, etc. Add magic and you could build yourself a fortress of mountains, or cut a new pass through them.

2. XP levels

Not sure how to implement this, but have a "build" action which gives your military units XP up to a certain level, where a new action is available, to go to another level. Max out about 50 XP for a unit. Maybe something like the legion training effect, or let there be xp for building a fort/sitting in said fort.

3. Bonus for XP level

I did this for my undead civ units. + whatever per level for 4 or 5 levels based on just what you want the unit to be good at. Recruits are normal, but once you hit veteran, two veterans side by side would be completely different units.

4. Carriers

Think-go anywhere airbases. One land, one sea, one air. No attack power, but carries 2 to 6 Aircraft

4.5. What if IFV's really carried Infantry, then were with them? Or maybe Early infantry that can become horseman and go back, or archers become horse archers and back?

5. Satellites

I'm wondering if I can make an invisible unit which can be targeted only by a couple of things, which gives a bonus to units/cities it's in range of.

6. Why we're here.

Thinking back, this whole idea evolved from the fact that I think that "loading" ships with missiles is stupid, at least in this environment. Why micromanage that without micromanaging fuel range for ships or ammunition for tanks? I think missiles should be "summoned" by the ship or sub firing them, with a life of one turn and a range of ten or so. There's nothing in Civ4 that seems like it would allow this, so, on to FFH-etc.

 

[Calavente]

nice ideas.
you might want to look at Fall Under (rife's modmodmod) for techs:
some tech give 96% (reduction of 4%) cost to other techs or 150% (50%more cost) to another.

instead of forbidding some techs, maybe you can make that
"physics" rise the price by 2 for learning Knowledge of the Ether and vice-versa, (and sorcery)
nuclear fission rising by 2 the price of sorcery (the price of sorcery being 3 time normal if you have both nuclear fission and physics....- +100% +100% = +200% etc)

for build action for XP, you can look at RifE and FF "learning buildings", "jousting tilts" gives free xp to mounted units until 20xp at a rate of ... 25-50%chance having 1xp per turn.

and I really like the idea of diverging techs.
I mean, even in "physics/real" world : should I choose to developpe the "lighter than air" aircrafts, creating huge floatting bases in the air, with slow-but-cheap balloons, zepplin...Etc.. or should I pursue (as happend in reality after the Hindenburg) the construction of heavier than air crafts, choosing one path meaning that the other is harder...etc).

going into the summoning path could make it harder to learn divination related magics...Etc
keep it working !

 

[misterhamtastic]

Do something, test, Do something, test, Do something, test...

I'm only through the A's of the tech tree.(like, 15 techs?) I just tracked down a crash on turn two, I think it may have to do with a circular tech requirement series. tech a needed tech b and tech b needed tech a.

I'm shooting towards just getting the basic concept working and in place with the basics. I'm trying not to think about too much else.

One big thing, if you decide to research all of the "nature" techs, you'll be able to produce some powerful animal units.

It won't be that you *can't* research into other trees, it's just that there'll be no crossover, so focus on one will be VERY rewarding. The tech times will be geared toward a mid-range civ being able to complete the "general" tree and one other small tree. If they go science, they'll need to focus on one path or another there to get to the end of a tree.

I'm not saying it's a line of twenty techs, just the first costs, say, 200, the second 500, the third 1500, the fourth 10000. I have no idea what that'll do for balance, but it'll be interesting.

Anyway, I do like those concepts from FU and such, I'm just nowhere near ready to try to implement them.

I'm just hoping to get through the techs(edit the prereq, do whatever is necessary for a unit or whatever, test) by Monday. When I'm through them, I'll still need to try to set up the "tree" and try to assign good research values. Then I'll be trying to do other conceptual stuff.

Oh, if anyone knows where the "terraformer" mod is, I'd like it. I want to make workers all-terrain with one tech, build land up with another couple of techs, down with another.

Also, is it possible to retain the ranged attack and put the air patrol function back working? I want to scramble my fighters when the drake shows up.

 

[Link]

I like the concept, but not the amount of work it would take to help.

 

[misterhamtastic]

Well, I guess it's the thought that counts, right?

Anyway, I got the techtree to a BASIC point of usability. I simplified the research requirements into 8 tiers, so I can find and replace any changes to the costs. I have most of the units in and working, as well as buildings.

My weakness, though, is graphics. There are a lot of buildings which look just like others, and the whole futuristic "feel" isn't there yet either, I don't think.

I'm strictly playtesting for right now, working through a scientific driven empire, using mechanos, of course. I play on marathon, and the techs seem a little quick so far, so I might change the overall levels.

Right now, here are the tech tiers:

1: 100 RPs on Normal (420 on Marathon)
2: 250
3: 500
4: 1000
5: 2500
6: 5000
7: 10000
8: 20000

I may double them, though.

There also seem to be a number of undocumented limits, I run into them and get CTD's I don't expect. There should be a list of documented crashes somewhere.

For example, a graphics problem causes a CTD during startup of the game, with no xml warning. A building issue causes a crash when initializing, and a circular tech issue(where tech a needs tech b which needs tech a) causes a crash on turn 2.

Knowing that, I'd have saved gobs of time.

There's still the costs of buildings and units, as well as some tech and buildning prereqs to fix, but those look like small potatoes so far. Stuff like the ability to build a techpriest before an adept, etc.

If anyone wants to help, to any degree(including playtesting) I'll upload what I have in a format which is easy to install and small to download. It's almost exclusively XML, with an art folder thrown in. It's like 60 megs or so, so it's probably not too bad.

I'm not entirely sure how to do this, though, so some advice or a direct to a tutorial would be necessary.

Well, let me get back to trying to harry Orthos out of my lands while trying to get physics and light fighters.

Before I go, any ideas, especially units or techs or buildings you want to share, please do, they are welcome. I don't promise to use them, as I may not know how to put them in, but I'll at least consider it.

Oh, and does anyone know if I have to unpak all of the civ4 fpk files to find stuff like the riflemen and cavalry graphics? Or how to use the fscale correctly? Mechs or any clockwork men or any of those graphics, as well as wilder stuff, like armored hippos or things of that nature, pleas, let me know.

Also, I'm still looking for a way to alter the landscape, turn mountains into molehills and such. A direct would really be appreciated.

Oh, and how to take and post a screenshot would help. I'd love to show my zeppelin carrier in action.

That's it for now. Like I said, if you want to check it out, let me know.

 

[Link]

I have an idea for adding different types of terrain. For example, you could make a hill improvement that functions exactly like a hill and uses the same art, but it will be a buildable improvement and require a certain tech.

 

[misterhamtastic]

Cool thought, link16. Call it "artificial hill" or something. The only problem I see is how to get it to build a quarry and a road on it.

Anyway. It's been a week of playtesting and tweaking. I'm focusing on the "scientific" tree right now, but I'm hitting a snag.

I think that I'm hitting an error that locks up the game, which is repeating itself. I think it may be an event, but I'm not sure how to find out for sure. Invariably, I'm about to build SOMETHING on the turn it happens. The last one I only had three cities, and was building two handgunners. I got the "built your first archery unit", click ok, and it locks. Reload the autosave, try to change the production, it locks when I click on the city. The turn prior, there is a "most advanced civs" pop-up.

I'm going to go try an earlier save, and change my production to research only, to eliminate my building stuff from being the problem. After that, (and I go grocery shopping, lol) I'll try Kael's method of troubleshooting using the worldbuilder to eliminate stuff. It's time-consuming, but will head me toward the right thing.

Wish me luck!

Oh, and if you know a good, simple place to upload files, I'll upload these. I'd do it here, as zipped files they're only about 5 Mbs. I'm not messing with art or python, which probably save space.

Also, if you know of an issue like this in vanilla orbis or ffh2 or ff, let me know. Especially if there's a published solution to it.

 

[misterhamtastic]

Another week of testing, although I slacked this weekend while trying Civ 5. (My opinion? Meh. I'll wait a year.)

Fixed the lock-up. Apparently, it dislikes circular unit advancements. I was trying to make it so certain units could laterally promote, like from warrior to horseman and back. Well, It said to get bent, so I scrapped that idea.

I worked on some purely tech/money based promotions for mechanical units, and got missiles to "summon" onto my missile armed ships. Instead of building a missile, then loading it onto a ship, missiles are spawned at the ship when called for, like a spell. More advanced ships/ bigger ships can upgrade to summon more at a time.

Necromancy is starting to be kind of bad-ass. Elementalism you can "summon" elementals to your cities(build). Alteration and Divination have me sort of stumped. I can't find that terraforming thing, so that's out for now.

Once again, if you know a good spot to (easily) upload files, or are willing to put them up somewhere, let me know. Zipped, they should fit right here, but every time I try to upload, I'm missing some security certificate or something.

 

[RFHolloway]

Fixed the lock-up. Apparently, it dislikes circular unit advancements. I was trying to make it so certain units could laterally promote, like from warrior to horseman and back. Well, It said to get bent, so I scrapped that idea.

You could look at the various crew options for ships in RIFE - they can switch crews in ports and they provide movement strength effects, they are handled via promotions. Could be useful for a mounted warrior (+1 move -1 str, and gain the action dismount)

 

[Calavente]

or to do this by a spell and not through an "upgrade".

horseman or archer, on a city with barracks and ... get the "becomes warrior" spell
becomes warrior spell :
-kill horseman/archer
-create warrior with same promotions,
-loses 2-10xp.

then the warrior can upgrade back into whatever ou want.
or give the "become warrior spell" usable only by unit with a given promotion.

or even some units can change back but in all the lines :
horsearcher can become archer, or warrior.
champion can become adept
horseman can become warrior.
archer can become scout.
ranger can become to scout or archer but not warrior.
so one wants to promote the ranger to champion :
ranger=>scout=>horseman=>warrior=>champion : and it costs a looot.

you can even make it so the "spell" costs some gold.

IMO it would be better than "crew" or "upgrade" for 2 reasons :
-change in graphics,
-no circular upgrade.

 

[Goodwill]

The mod might be more interesting if it skipped the inevitable developmental buildup and started right away in the industrial/tier 3 eras. Civs could be designed by flavor, with certain techs already known, and others permanently blocked for researching, whether they are magical/mystical, technological/scientific, or some hybrid civs that are somewhere in between and have a greater variety in general, but have research penalties and are blocked from the most advanced techs.

For balance sake, it might be easiest to give arcane and divine units a fair number of promotions when they are built, so they can be more competitive with high strength technological units. Rituals and projects could be interesting, such as anti-magic fields (can't cast), or electrical storms (mechanical units can't move/attack). Could do that stuff on smaller scales. Heck, I have a lot of ideas for a mod like this, especially since I spent some time thinking up an awesome shadowrun mod, complete with riggers and deckers and cybernetic implants! Anyway, good luck with yours.