1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

NiGHTS: Strategies

Discussion in 'Civilization NiGHTS' started by markusbeutel, Aug 29, 2011.

  1. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,976
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    NiGHTS deviates a lot from the core gameplay found in CIV V, and it can be a challenge for new players to adapt to the new happiness mechanics, tech tree, and social policies - so this thread will be focused on sharing strategies.


     
  2. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,976
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Some of my own personal strategies I'm currently using in the early portions of the game.

    1) If I'm not playing a Civ with the creative trait, I'll generally take Piety to start the game, and then immediately adopt Ceremonial Burial for the +50% Settler bonus in the capital. Doing this usually lets me get my second Settler out in 15-20 turns based on initial city placement. If I am playing a creative Civ, and I meet other Civ's early on in the game, I'll take Tradition for the capital boosts and the bonus to cultural border expansion. Finally, if the terrain by my first city is weak, (tundra/jungle/desert), I'll focus on taking Order, as the immediate boost in food/growth is very important - and the Scouting sub-policy still gives the boost to Settler production just like Ceremonial Burial, (only this time in all Cities, not just the Capital).

    2) With the inclusion of the new starting barbarians, I've deviated from initial scouts, and generally build 2 Warriors, followed by a Scout if my initial placement was weak and I don't have my second Settler out yet. Also, if there's a 3-Production hill relatively close by, I'll move my Settler to that location as well to make sure I get the 3F/3P/1G start instead of 3F/2P/1G.

    3) I'll always settle my second City next to at least 1 new luxury resource - but at the same time I keep an eye open for any natural wonders as they give +5 happiness if they're within a City's borders, (and their yields are much higher than in vanilla CIV V). Preferably, I'll be able to settle near a luxury resource that isn't obscured by forest/jungle as these can take a little bit of teching to make use of, (although jungle is less formidable now that it requires Iron Working or Bronze Working and not both). If I can, I prefer to settle near marble, pearls, and furs/ivory - as Animal Husbandry generally presents a shorter tech route than Iron Working/Metal Casting. If I can do all of this and box in an AI opponent, all the better.

    4) As for initial builds, if I start off with a Civ that begins the game with Mysticism, I'll quickly build a monument. This initial Culture really gets things moving and the monument really pays for itself. In all other situations I'll build a Granary first, as the 40% carry over of food after a citizen is born really gets the happiness going. I'll do this in subsequent Cities as well, (unless I'm on the coast - where it's then a toss-up between a granary and a workboat). Once I start to run into money trouble, I'll start spamming Storehouses to get the economy under control, but hopefully I can avoid building too many of these early on and instead feed my economy with improvements.

    5) If I'm planning on some early warring - the units that I build generally vary according to each situation, but I try to diversify a little bit to avoid the +25% added production that each additional unit of the same type takes to build. I'll also focus on Piety as opposed to Honor for early wars, (first 100 turns), in order to unlock Paganism, (if I manage to get a wonder up). This grants me a +50% unit upgrade discount which can be quite powerful if I happen to have Iron early on and want to upgrade my starting Warriors without having to build Spearmen.

    My strategies tend to change from game to game, as I'm still figuring out what works, and what doesn't. There's enough initial options with the tech tree and policies, that each game generally plays out quite a bit differently at the moment.
     
  3. Crazyface

    Crazyface Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2010
    Messages:
    13
    I am no Civ expert...I have "won" about 3 maps so far. I downloaded the Nights mod and played it last night for a few hours. It has alot of good changes but I am not sure how balanced it is.

    I am playing American Civ and I started in just about the most amazing spot I have seen. On a river/floodplain with 1 wheat tile....I mean the city is growing like crazy. I founded a 2nd city about turn 40 and it's the same scenario. My plan was to go big expansion (founded 3rd city about turn 100) and try a science victory. The problem is even though I have amazing city growth..the AI is still way way ahead. I mean I am sitting at about 8 military units and 10 happines......while Rome (who keeps DoW me) is way ahead of me in military, expansion and happines (last check they had liek 80 happiness and 2x the military). I am only playing on Warlord (normal) setting..

    I just don't understand how they are so far ahead when I had extremely ideal starting spots, huge growth early. Right now I'm around turn 150 but it's just going to be a slow death at this point...they are so far ahead of me there's no way I can survive.
     
  4. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,976
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Coming from vanilla CIV V, the AI expansion rates currently in NiGHTS are probably going to seem very difficult to compete with, but with good tech/policy combinations, and efficient use of workers, it's quite possible to keep up with the AI.

    For example, I generally have my second city up around turn 15-20, a third around turn 30-40, and around 5-7 after 100 turns. In NiGHTS, the AI has a much lower likelihood of attacking you early on in the game, (except some of the more aggressive AI), and instead of immediately building 6 warriors, they'll usually go for cities. This affects overall difficulty much more than fending off a miserable early AI DOW.

    I will be addressing AI expansion and happiness on lower difficulties, though - as they're currently to high right now. I've also been working on calibrating the AI and user happiness levels, as they're still currently functioning under the rule-set where cities provided unlimited happiness from citizens. I needed ample time to test this out - and as a result, in the last few versions happiness has probably been harder for the human and easier for the AI to maintain.

    v10.1, (releasing on friday night), will bridge this gap between AI and player happiness levels so that both function on a more equal playing field.
     
  5. maceman121

    maceman121 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    30
    The other option to do is what I do. I only have three cities, MAYBE four by the time I run out of decent space thanks to AI expansion. After that, I use those cities to focus on culture and science than DOW on my nearest enemy to take his cities. Even the big AI isn't that smart and can be target killed with a bit of care, some siege equipment and range. Than I have all the cities I need XD.

    On a side note, as Persia, I love the Honor policy that gives you culture for Barbarian kills. Worthless later in the game, but after first ruins giving me an Immortal, means I am raking in the culture without need for the Piety tree or focus on the cultural buildings in cities for a while. Much better than 2 culture per kill regardless of strength :). Now I focus on cavalry as they are real simple to kill with immortals (I lose 1 HP, they die) and give most culture. Only barbarians I don't easily slaughter are spearmen. Perhaps barbarians might need a bit more strength? Dunno.
     
  6. Kinjiru

    Kinjiru Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2001
    Messages:
    74
    Basically, do you go deep or go broad?

    It would seem that it's generally better to go broad across policies than deep within one. Is that others observations?

    The initial bonus for picking a policy track is often better than at least a few of the first five selections within each policy track. So, after taking a particular track, on the next pick it seems better to select a whole different track than to take one of the subselections in the first track.

    Am I totally off-base here?
     
  7. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,976
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    I find I generally go broad at first - although the exact order differs from game to game. At that point I'll look into which branches I want to go deeper in according to which governments I want to become available, (although I also mix and match here based on the specifics of my game at the moment).

    I do focus on certain branches in certain situations - like if I want to quickly get a second City down I'll start with Piety or Order, and if I'm situated along the Coast, I'll go 2-3 deep in Commerce before opening another branch.
     
  8. maceman121

    maceman121 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    30
    I think it depends on your play style. When playing the Persian Empire, I take a few deep, but play broad over the policies. I have 3 or 4 of tradition, 3 or 4 of Honor, the same in Piety (I wait and get Religious Leaders when I want a golden age XD), and just started to delve into Commerce. For an offensive based play like that, I find that the lower level policies offer more of what I want, though that might change in the near future with a re balance of the policy trees. For my English game, I have 8 piety, 6 Patronage, and 10 rationalism so far, showing I go deeper into the policies for a more defensive game style. Overall, I find that either style of play, the further down the tree you go, the less value overall you get for the cost to get there. Some are quite pointless at all (Supply and Demand, Agnosticism, and Nationalism as prime examples as noted in my Policy post).

    In the end, it really depends on your play style. I went deep in Rationalism and Piety because I like to get ahead of my AI opponents as quick as I can. Piety gets me more policies, and Rationalism greatly ups my Science. Patronage is great for the CS (better when they all work correctly I think), which only helps me grow in science and culture, as well as population. For aggressive, the top few of most trees are good to have, keeping me diverse to deal with any enemy I come across.

    I don't think any of the policies are all that great, which is perfect since it means none of them are designed to ALWAYS be taken. They add to the flavor by doing some increases (though getting free techs can really help to break that idea as those are always worth it), but none are overpowering.
     
  9. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,976
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    I found a bug where Barbarian Swordsmen weren't spawning in the last few updates - they'll be back in v10.1 and they're stronger than Spearmen/Horsemen but they only have 1 movement point.
     
  10. IxI

    IxI Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2008
    Messages:
    62
    Playing on prince I do not see much need for trading posts, since for happiness it is important your cities grow I just build farms and mines.
    Do you use trade posts often in your games?

    Edit: looks like in late game trade posts are better than farms
     
  11. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,976
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Correct - in the early/middle portions of the game farms/mines are much better - but as you get through the Tech Tree and unlock more Policies devoted to Trading Posts, they start to become viable options.
     
  12. Steinernein

    Steinernein Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    What you could do is just use farms early and mid game, then convert everything into trading posts once you've deemed to have 'enough' population and where conversion would give you a 'critical' mass of gold. Critical mass being enough to buy nuclear missiles every turn in multiple cities.
     
  13. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,976
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    That's definitely an option - although my computer usually fails to get through turns at a decent rate at those later eras so I usually try and end my games no later than 1700/1800. :crazyeye:
     
  14. Steinernein

    Steinernein Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2011
    Messages:
    13
    The slowness of turns is related to the AI having to move everything at least once in order to make sure that nothing gets stuck right?

    Though I suppose this is more of a technical question than a strategy comment.

    On a separate note, weren't trying to figure out a way to implement cottages like Civ 4 ? Isn't there some way to make trade posts simulate that through policies or through techs?
     
  15. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,976
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    I could give additional boosts to trading posts through techs/policies/governments - but I'd prefer the system implemented in CIV IV where they grow over time. Some of these tags are in place in the XML as remnants from CIV IV - but they still need the lua hookups. I'm holding off on this feature until we get .dll access - as even if we added cottages to the current game, we'd have no way of letting the AI know that they increase in value over time - and this would present another exploit that isn't really needed at the moment. :crazyeye:

    As for the slowness of turns - the AI constantly shifting it's units plays a large role for sure. There's actually working code in the game that limits the amount of Workers available to a Civ, (which can be increased through policies). The mere fact that this is a working, (yet unimplemented feature), shows that Firaxis was probably aware of the slowdown caused by units - and this could've been one way to limit that slowdown, (at the expense of gameplay).
     
  16. Nitro2985

    Nitro2985 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Messages:
    32
    Would it at least be possible to update the graphics for cottages so that they don't look like dirt hovels during the modern era?
     
  17. IxI

    IxI Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2008
    Messages:
    62
    Citizen over 10 don't give happiness? So a city size 10 produce the same happiness as a city with size 15?
     
  18. markusbeutel

    markusbeutel NiGHTS

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1,976
    Location:
    Vancouver BC Canada
    Unfortunately I'm limited by what graphics are currently in the game at the moment, and even changing the current graphic to something else - like a plantation for example, would add extra load times to the start of each game.

    Correct. Happiness was spiriting out of control in earlier versions of the mod where all citizens generated Happiness, (especially with the vanilla Courthouse bug still in effect). There are more than enough Happiness buildings to make up for this as you progress through the game as your focus will partially shift from growth to production.
     
  19. Balerune

    Balerune Prince

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    373
    On Immortal, I've tried various maps and various civs (currently struggling with a British Isles map) aside from diplomacy (the last map I was friendly with all civs for at least 10 turns and trading with everyone and then one civ next to me war dec -- but this isn't that unusual for the same civ back 30 or so turns had war dec and then after the war within 2 turns wanted to be friends) which still drives me blooey and the usual mid to end game run away civ; either one of two problems presents itself: I am jumping from various government trees to gain some or other immediate or long term advantage (I've tried going deep into a tree but that doesn't seem to answer potential problems) as the threats don't go away they just seem to grow or I find that I am in the wrong tree mid to late game and have either thrown the game away or severely handicapped myself.

    So as a technical point, is the general strategy (if there is such a thing) to pursue a certain tree or to hop (or is there a deficiency there?)

    I only stay on immortal cause I used to win and I keep with it now as it gives me some sense of how you are changing the game.

    I'll say the beginning to mid game goes relatively competitively but somewhere in the mid game things start to spin out of control for me.

    Otherwise::D

    Thanks.
     
  20. Balerune

    Balerune Prince

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    373
    A few graphs to illustrate.

    Cities, policies and techs are close to each other but culture, treasury and population spike for a some civs and it gets worse (if I hold on) the longer the game goes on. cities.jpg

    policies.jpg

    techs.jpg

    culture.jpg

    treasury.jpg

    population.jpg
     

Share This Page