Nine Ideas
- Thread starter lumpthing
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Blasphemous
Graulich
Why should there be a benefit to staying pagan? I ask this honestly, because I don't understand what's wrong with the current model where it pays off to adopt an organized religion.
Blasphemous
Graulich
No, religions don't have benfits per se - adopting a state religion is what has benefits, and these benefits are indeed realistic and more than what you had in nations without an organized religion.
Lachlan
Great Builder of Civs !
in Eusebius' Mod pagan temple automatically upgrade to a religion temple ...
Blasphemous
Graulich
Which doesn't completely reflect reality, although some of the game's World Religions did hijack local paganism (Christianity did, at any rate). Perhaps when we create different styles of religion spread for each religion we can make some of the religions do that and others not.
holy king
Deity
dont know if that would make a big difference since org rel comes quite early...
Blasphemous
Graulich
It would still be a nice touch. It would also remove the temptation of ditching the real Rel Civics to cut costs (which I almost did earlier today in a very religion-fueled game of Persia).
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
Eusebius' Mod is the mod to be used as the example for the change of the religions.
All religions took over pagan temples. Christianity took the Pantheon in Rome, Islam took the Black Stone in Mekkah, and i'll bet that others can give me some examples for other religions.
Christianity even took pagan holy days and made them christians like mid winter solstice, they called it Xmas.
All religions took over pagan temples. Christianity took the Pantheon in Rome, Islam took the Black Stone in Mekkah, and i'll bet that others can give me some examples for other religions.
Christianity even took pagan holy days and made them christians like mid winter solstice, they called it Xmas.
Phallus
Freudian Slip
Only if the religion in question replaced paganism in the city. Apart from Glastonbury Tor and Ynys Mon there are few Celtic sites that remained important after Christianity. Infact, standing stones such as the ones at Avebury were dismantled with full support from the church.
I somewhat agree.. however Judaism is considered one of the oldest religions in history (in my opinion older than Hinduism and buddhism) and is considered one of the 12 (I think) Classical Religions, which includes major religions of the world (Zoroastrianism included...however zoroastrianism has less followers than Judaism)
The only reason Judaism is passed its heyday is because of all of the segregation and prejudice throughout the ages. The Holocaust killed out over half of the world's population of Jews (6 million), so the Jewish Population could be doubled, or even tripled if the Holocaust hadn't caused such an impact
Jews throughout history have been hated and killed, and remained faithful to their religion, showing an importance and it is also a long lasting religion and was the basis to the world's #1 and #2 Religions Islam and Christianity. Perhaps Zoroastrianism, Shintoism, Jainism, Sikhism etc. should be included, but I still don't think Judaism should be discluded. It has had such an impact in the world that it can not be disregarded.
I can kind of see what you are saying...but...I'm not quite sure it should be "replaced"
lumpthing
generic lump
esnaz said:
I really think a lot of people are misunderstanding my point of view here. I think Judaism is great; I think it has been more influential on world history than Zoroastrianism. I do not even think that Judaism is 'past its heyday'. Jews and their religion have had a phenomenal, very disproportionate, impact on human history which, IMHO, has generally been extremely beneficial to the world.
I feel like a broken record but my motivation in wanting it replaced in RFC is that historicity and believability would be vastly improved by the very simple step of replacing it with Zoroastrianism. This is simply because I hate to see the Middle Eastern empires adopt it as a state religion just because they happen to conquer the Jewish holy city. What has that got to do with history? Nothing, it's totally unbelievable. Zoroastrianism would be a lot more believeable and historically, behaved much more like a civ4 religion.
In summary: it's not a question of which seven religions have had the greatest influence on human history, but a question of which seven religions will enhance the historical atmosphere and gameplay of RFC?
Also, while I agree with all your other comments about Judaism's importance as a world religion, it's a bit meaningless to say that it would be a lot bigger today if it weren't for the Holocaust. Zoroastrianism would almost certainly still be an immense world religion, certainly larger than Judaism, if Persia been a bit better prepared and avoided being crushed by the Arabs in the 7th Century.
Having said all that, if so many people are desperate to keep Judaism in, I would be okay with replacing Taoism with Zoroastrianism and keeping Judaism , albeit modded in some way to stop it being a state religion. But that would be a lot more work than simply switching Judaism and Zoroastrianism (no coding required and Zoroastrianism could just adopt nearly all Judaism graphics).
Blasphemous
Graulich
Well, I happen to be a compulsive roleplayer, and I happen to be playing a game of Persia right now, and it actually felt great and realistic in a screwed up alternate-history kind of way to conquer Yerushalayim and harness its cultural power to strengthen my budding empire. For a while Judaism dominated the mediterranean and it felt to me like I had, as a wise and cunning emperor, reigned in this local religion, strengthened it beyond belief, and used it as a force of influence over my neighboring area. Egypt was almost instantly Jewish and thus my good neighbor and friend, Arabia was Jewish since Sana'a was one of the two or three Barb cities Judaism had spread to (but then I conquered the Arabs), Greece was Jewish until they decided to attack me (stupid, stupid decision), and Rome was iirc Jewish until France took over them. It was actually a turning point signifying my reaching the height of my power and the inevitable downhill crawl that my only remaining Jewish neighbor was Egypt and that soon after the last remaining Jewish civ beside the two of us converted (I think it was the Mali, to Islam).lumpthing said:
Most of that was beside the point. The point is that Judaism could have actually been used by a large empire as a state religion and turned into something it never became in real history. This was never very likely to happen, and it really is too commonplace in the mod, but it is nevertheless a nice little alternate history twist.
I think adding Zoroastrianism, whether instead of Taoism or Confucianism or in addition to both, will probably do the trick without requiring a removal of Judaism. Once there is another Middle-Eastern religion in the BCs we will not see so many Jewish states. It also really won't hurt to make the AI predisposed against adopting Judaism as a state religion.
Phallus
Freudian Slip
As you say, you wouldn't have much choice in the matter anyway as it happens in every game. Judaism dominates all the classical and middle-eastern civs and while I liked your religious suggestions and agree that Zoroastrianism would make things more accurate, I can still see Judaism dominating Greece, Rome and Egypt.
I'm intrigued by this since we'd be able to keep Judaism whilst scrapping the inaccuracies. How would you go about this?
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
@Blas
I see your location is Jeruzalem, Israel, so i think you are Jewish, and that's why you want judaism in the game, i think?
I'm Flemish, a descentent from the (Salian) Franks, they are not in the game , but they were very important in the course of history (for the whole world). Should I demand the Franks to be in the game?
I see your location is Jeruzalem, Israel, so i think you are Jewish, and that's why you want judaism in the game, i think?
I'm Flemish, a descentent from the (Salian) Franks, they are not in the game , but they were very important in the course of history (for the whole world). Should I demand the Franks to be in the game?
lumpthing
generic lump
Just had a thought. In addition to replacing Judaism with Zoroastrianism, why not also replace Taoism with Shintoism? Again, not because Shintoism has been more influential than Taoism (since Shintoism claims to be an organised religion are based almost entirely on ideas borrowed from Buddhism and Chinese religions I would actually argue the opposite) but because it would improve gameplay and historic accuracy. At the moment, China and Japan's shared religion makes them good friends, which is not realistic. Giving Japan its own state religion would make them rivals, which would be more fun and realistic.
So my dream team for RFC religions is now: Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Shintoism.
If we can mod in more than seven religions, then so much the better. But if that's not possible then I am not really a fan of having the disabled-Judaism (state religion not possible) because that would undermine gamplay.
So my dream team for RFC religions is now: Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Shintoism.
If we can mod in more than seven religions, then so much the better. But if that's not possible then I am not really a fan of having the disabled-Judaism (state religion not possible) because that would undermine gamplay.
Lachlan
Great Builder of Civs !
You should replace Judaism with Mediterranean Polytheism
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