Nine Ideas
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McA123
Prince
I've never seen it as the state religion of the Arabs.
Phallus
Freudian Slip
Okay, now we're just going in circles.
Blasphemous
Graulich
Look, I'm getting a little tired of repeating myself. I definately think Zoroastrianism should be added, I'm just against removing Judaism. Judaism should be left in and made less likely to become SR. Right now we have three eastern religions whereas in each game only one or two becomes SR in more than one country (and usually one or two stays out of SRs alltogether.) If we have to replace any religion, Judaism is not the one. But we definately have to add Zoroastrianism.lumpthing said:
Finally, I will repeat the main thing that doesn't seem clear in what I'm saying: it amuses and annoys me that Judaism becomes such a widespread SR, just like the rest of you.
I've seen that once or twice. A roaring hilarity, if you ask me. Saw a Christian Arabia recently as well.McA123 said:
But all this is only entertaining in a "look how incomplete the mod is" way, it's not a good thing.
Blasphemous
Graulich
Yes kairob, your position - unlike mine - was not repeatedly ignored or misinterpreted. You were quite clear all along.
lumpthing
generic lump
But Blasphemous, what is wrong with Zoroastrianism dammit! Tell me that eh! 
Seriously I understand your point of view now. Let's forget Shintoism then. How about replacing Judaism with Protestant Christianity? (The original Christianity becoming Orthodox Christianity, representing both Catholicism and Othodoxy). That would add a big new religion for the West that really did have a huge impact on international relations.
Seriously I understand your point of view now. Let's forget Shintoism then. How about replacing Judaism with Protestant Christianity? (The original Christianity becoming Orthodox Christianity, representing both Catholicism and Othodoxy). That would add a big new religion for the West that really did have a huge impact on international relations.
Hitti-Litti
Deity
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Great idea! Europe should get "religion-blocks" so religious wars would affect on Europe like in real life.
Zoroastrianism actually isn't as good as it looked when I think of it. It could spread unrealistically to Europe and India, and would be only one nation's state religion. So Protestant religion would be better, because:
1)It would make Europe, which has many nations, religiously split, causing religion wars.
2)No more Jew Europe, coz Judaism would be removed.
3)No more Jew Arabia/Persia, because I think Hinduism can be limited to India and SE Asia, and Arabia and later Persia would be Muslim.
Zoroastrianism could be "included" if pagan temples would be in.
Zoroastrianism actually isn't as good as it looked when I think of it. It could spread unrealistically to Europe and India, and would be only one nation's state religion. So Protestant religion would be better, because:
1)It would make Europe, which has many nations, religiously split, causing religion wars.
2)No more Jew Europe, coz Judaism would be removed.
3)No more Jew Arabia/Persia, because I think Hinduism can be limited to India and SE Asia, and Arabia and later Persia would be Muslim.
Zoroastrianism could be "included" if pagan temples would be in.
lumpthing
generic lump
Well I was proposing replacing Judaism and Taoism with Protestantism and Zoroastrianism. I don't think we have to choose between the two.
I don't think there's anything particularly unrealistic about Zoroastrianism spreading to Europe and India. Two reasons:
1) Zoroastrianism DID spread to India. There are more Zoroastrians in India today than in Persia. There are also many Zoroastrians in Tajikstan and Kazahkstan.
2) In the centuries preceding the rise of Islam, Western Eurasia was split between two great empires, the Christian Roman/Byzantine Empire and Zoroastrian Persia. If Persia had partially survived the Muslim conquest, as the Roman/Byzantine Empire did, Zoroastrianism would surely have spread with the fortunes of the Zoroastrian Empire and any Zoroastrian successor states/colonies, just like with Christian Rome.
Having said that, Zoroastrianism never had the evangelical zeal of Christianity or Islam (though apparently conversion and even forced conversion did happen: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/conversion_in_zoroastrianism.htm). It should spread much more slowly than those two.
As Rhye has said earlier, he does have plans for religious schemes (including Protestantism) but as far as I know he hasn't given away any details.
I don't think there's anything particularly unrealistic about Zoroastrianism spreading to Europe and India. Two reasons:
1) Zoroastrianism DID spread to India. There are more Zoroastrians in India today than in Persia. There are also many Zoroastrians in Tajikstan and Kazahkstan.
2) In the centuries preceding the rise of Islam, Western Eurasia was split between two great empires, the Christian Roman/Byzantine Empire and Zoroastrian Persia. If Persia had partially survived the Muslim conquest, as the Roman/Byzantine Empire did, Zoroastrianism would surely have spread with the fortunes of the Zoroastrian Empire and any Zoroastrian successor states/colonies, just like with Christian Rome.
Having said that, Zoroastrianism never had the evangelical zeal of Christianity or Islam (though apparently conversion and even forced conversion did happen: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Religions/iranian/Zarathushtrian/conversion_in_zoroastrianism.htm). It should spread much more slowly than those two.
As Rhye has said earlier, he does have plans for religious schemes (including Protestantism) but as far as I know he hasn't given away any details.
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
I said it one, I said it twice, heck I said it a 1000 times :
Eusebius World Religions Mod
(http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=1808)
It has Judasim, Zoroastrianism, Shintoism,...
It has chistianity with shism into Protestantism, Orthodox Christianity, Catholicism
it has hellenism and mesoamericanism and many more religions.
Perhaps we should contact Eusebius and ask him for his help?
Eusebius World Religions Mod
(http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=1808)
It has Judasim, Zoroastrianism, Shintoism,...
It has chistianity with shism into Protestantism, Orthodox Christianity, Catholicism
it has hellenism and mesoamericanism and many more religions.
Perhaps we should contact Eusebius and ask him for his help?
Phallus
Freudian Slip
I'm going to use this as a response to posts 148-150 simply because they all seem to be saying the same kind of thing.
Combining a proper religious schism feature (as explored by Rhye) with Blas's mostly ignored suggestions for major/minor spread would be far better than the proposal to simply replace another religion with Protestantism.
Combining a proper religious schism feature (as explored by Rhye) with Blas's mostly ignored suggestions for major/minor spread would be far better than the proposal to simply replace another religion with Protestantism.
Blasphemous
Graulich
I'm going to simply ignore any suggestions of made-up World Religions like "Mesoamericanism" because I believe I have thoroughly and repeatedly explained why this is wrong and superfluous. If somebody needs a reminder I'll be glad to post links to past threads (two or three) and posts (dozens) regarding this issue. Some are in this very thread.
We have to make sure to at least include either Zoroastrianism or Judaism because otherwise we'll have a void of religion and culture in the Middle East which was historically not predominantly Christian before the rise of Islam and was indeed the cradle of Western religion (clear lines can be traced from Polytheism and Zoroastrianism through Judaism and Christianity to Islam, imho.)
We have to make sure to at least include either Zoroastrianism or Judaism because otherwise we'll have a void of religion and culture in the Middle East which was historically not predominantly Christian before the rise of Islam and was indeed the cradle of Western religion (clear lines can be traced from Polytheism and Zoroastrianism through Judaism and Christianity to Islam, imho.)
lumpthing
generic lump
I'm against made-up world religions too. Eusebius' mod is very big and includes a lot of drastic changes. I doubt I would want to take more than a few elements from it without looking at in great detail.
On the subject of Blasphemous minor/major religion distinction (which I admit, I've only just read) I think it's definitely a good idea. However, I imagine it would require a lot of modding work and there are just so many other things I would love to see included in RFC that I would see it as a low priority.
Anyway, as people have said, this religion debate is going round in circles. Maybe we should try and come up with a consensus so that if Rhye looks at this thread he doesn't have to sift through our pages of debate to find out what his adoring fans would to see added.
So, here is my provisional consensus. Please say what you think should be added/changed to better represent the conclusions of our debate.
1) There is unanimous support for adding Zoroastrianism on the grounds that this will improve gamepaly and historical accuracy in the Middle East and because its character and historical role complements that of the existing religions. However, it should spread slowly, reflecting its mostly non-evangelical nature. Taoism was the most popular choice for replacement, since it currently adds very little to the game.
2)Shintoism was suggested as another new religion, in order to make Japan more isolated and antagonistic towards China. However, this idea was not popular.
3) There is broad agreement that something needs to be done about the behaviour of Judaism in RFC. Many people want it removed entirely while others want it handicapped so it is impossible or unlikely for it to become a state religion.
4) There is unanimous support for simulating the Christian schisms which led to (most importantly) Protestantism and (less importantly) Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
5) Vishaing's idea (post #99) (or some variation of it) of making paganism require no state religion, and having a pagan temple building which becomes obsolete or is converted into a 'proper' religious temple upon conversion, received unanimous support.
On the subject of Blasphemous minor/major religion distinction (which I admit, I've only just read) I think it's definitely a good idea. However, I imagine it would require a lot of modding work and there are just so many other things I would love to see included in RFC that I would see it as a low priority.
Anyway, as people have said, this religion debate is going round in circles. Maybe we should try and come up with a consensus so that if Rhye looks at this thread he doesn't have to sift through our pages of debate to find out what his adoring fans would to see added.
So, here is my provisional consensus. Please say what you think should be added/changed to better represent the conclusions of our debate.
1) There is unanimous support for adding Zoroastrianism on the grounds that this will improve gamepaly and historical accuracy in the Middle East and because its character and historical role complements that of the existing religions. However, it should spread slowly, reflecting its mostly non-evangelical nature. Taoism was the most popular choice for replacement, since it currently adds very little to the game.
2)Shintoism was suggested as another new religion, in order to make Japan more isolated and antagonistic towards China. However, this idea was not popular.
3) There is broad agreement that something needs to be done about the behaviour of Judaism in RFC. Many people want it removed entirely while others want it handicapped so it is impossible or unlikely for it to become a state religion.
4) There is unanimous support for simulating the Christian schisms which led to (most importantly) Protestantism and (less importantly) Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
5) Vishaing's idea (post #99) (or some variation of it) of making paganism require no state religion, and having a pagan temple building which becomes obsolete or is converted into a 'proper' religious temple upon conversion, received unanimous support.
Blasphemous
Graulich
My consent is given to this consensus, bar two caveats:
On point (4), this requires more in-depth discussion to decide if it's even a good idea, and how it should be done.
On point (5), I think the consensus is that the pagan altar/temple thing should obsolete with Theology or Monotheism rather than ever be converted. I will add as an aside (not as part of the consensus) that this will create some resistance in players to organized religions because they will not want as much to research technology which obsoletes an important building. The AI will have to be adjusted accordingly if it does not already disfavor techs that obsolete its buildings.
On point (4), this requires more in-depth discussion to decide if it's even a good idea, and how it should be done.
On point (5), I think the consensus is that the pagan altar/temple thing should obsolete with Theology or Monotheism rather than ever be converted. I will add as an aside (not as part of the consensus) that this will create some resistance in players to organized religions because they will not want as much to research technology which obsoletes an important building. The AI will have to be adjusted accordingly if it does not already disfavor techs that obsolete its buildings.
Phallus
Freudian Slip
Couldn't the pagan centre obsolete with a state religion? It would make more sense than linking it to a specific technology.
Blasphemous
Graulich
If it's possible, that would indeed make more sense. Is it possible to make a building linked to a Civic (Paganism)?
I have been looking at the civics code for a little while trying to start a balancer, and It is possible to 'psuedo-obselete' the temple with a civic.
Mainly, with each civic you can apply a happiness/unhappiness bonus if a city has a certain building (Nationahood's +2 happiness with Baracks uses this). We could assign to all of the religious civics a '-2 unhappiness with pagan temple' or some other thing to balance out the happiness given, that way the temple would 'obselete' except for its culture which could be considered to be that religion 'adapting' the pagan religions to itself and itself to the pagan religions, as Christianity is famous for.
Furthermore, we could also give civic 'free religion' only a -1 happiness to represent the rise of Neo-Paganism in contemporary society.
Also, if we make the pagan temple provide a bit more happiness then other templs that could make the religious civics vastly disliked among the AI, and might help curb the spread of some religions by preventing the AIs from switching to a civic that allows a state religion. However we must be careful, because if we make the penalties for adopting a state religion to high than AIs will never convert, and if they are too low then they will still convert too quickly. Or not, I haven't looked at the AI code too much (I keep hearing Bugs Bunny say: "Don't go up there, its dark"). Eventually I'm sure they will adopt a religious civic so they should convert.
EDIT: another thing we can do which should not require too much effort, is make it so the Pagan temple can only be built in civs with Paganism as a civic, to stop the construction of Pagan temples in the modern world, which if I am correct doesn't really happen. This might take some SDK work, as I know you can restrict units to civics currently, but I might have to adapt the SDK tag for this over to buildings too I'm not sure, ultimately I might just need to adapt an XML tag from the CIV4BuildingsSchema.xml file. I'll try to look into this sometime today, but right now I really should be doing Calc Homework...
Mainly, with each civic you can apply a happiness/unhappiness bonus if a city has a certain building (Nationahood's +2 happiness with Baracks uses this). We could assign to all of the religious civics a '-2 unhappiness with pagan temple' or some other thing to balance out the happiness given, that way the temple would 'obselete' except for its culture which could be considered to be that religion 'adapting' the pagan religions to itself and itself to the pagan religions, as Christianity is famous for.
Furthermore, we could also give civic 'free religion' only a -1 happiness to represent the rise of Neo-Paganism in contemporary society.
Also, if we make the pagan temple provide a bit more happiness then other templs that could make the religious civics vastly disliked among the AI, and might help curb the spread of some religions by preventing the AIs from switching to a civic that allows a state religion. However we must be careful, because if we make the penalties for adopting a state religion to high than AIs will never convert, and if they are too low then they will still convert too quickly. Or not, I haven't looked at the AI code too much (I keep hearing Bugs Bunny say: "Don't go up there, its dark"). Eventually I'm sure they will adopt a religious civic so they should convert.
EDIT: another thing we can do which should not require too much effort, is make it so the Pagan temple can only be built in civs with Paganism as a civic, to stop the construction of Pagan temples in the modern world, which if I am correct doesn't really happen. This might take some SDK work, as I know you can restrict units to civics currently, but I might have to adapt the SDK tag for this over to buildings too I'm not sure, ultimately I might just need to adapt an XML tag from the CIV4BuildingsSchema.xml file. I'll try to look into this sometime today, but right now I really should be doing Calc Homework...
SadoMacho
spanker of civilizations
Mesoamericanism isn't made up, the aztec had there religion too, remember the bloodcult from CIV III.
Eusebius' mod can be the basis form the changes in the religion in RFC. Some elements could be used.
Eusebius' mod can be the basis form the changes in the religion in RFC. Some elements could be used.
Phallus
Freudian Slip
In the context of that mod, Mesoamericanism is a term for loosely associated beliefs found among various central American peoples. The Aztecs believed Teotihuacan was where Quetzalcoatl sacrificed the other gods after a sense of duty to Nanahuatzín, but it's unlikely the founders of Teotihuacan shared this view. It is as made up as Abrahamism or Dharmism.
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