No angry Swedes, Danes?

[Willowmound]

I've been waiting for a thread to pop up with some angry Dane or Swede lamenting both the Viking civ and the Viking scenario.

But all is quiet! Don't you guys care?

I am of course talking about the fact that the Vikings in Civ4 speak Norwegian. Trøndersk to be exact (dialect from Trondheim). Now, the Vikings didn't speak Norwegian. Nor did they speak Swedish or Danish. They spoke Norse, which is pretty much the language still spoken in Iceland. If I were Danish or Swedish I'd be mightily upset by this. Luckily, I'm neither!

And then there is the fact that in the Viking scenario, neither Denmark nor Sweden is included in the map. All you get is western Norway. Which is oh so very, very wrong.

And I was wondering why no one seems to care..?

 

[FrozenRaven]

maybe the answer to your question is that warlords hasn't been released in Scandinavia yet it should be released any day now... but really, do the Vikings in the game speak Norwegian? that's so cool

 

[Underseer]

On the one hand, I understand what you're saying, but on the other... do we really need three nordic civs?

 

[Willowmound]

@ FrozenRaven: Right, that would explain it. I live in Australia you see. And yes, they do speak Norwegian.

@ Underseer: No, not three civs! One civ, the Vikings, speaking Norse. And I guess a slightly larger map for the scenario, 's all.

 

[Lars_Domus]

I heard a Viking unit speaking Norwegian in a Gamespot gameplay video, and there was also a thread about this a few weeks ago. It doesn't sound like trøndersk to me, but then again I'm rubbish at telling dialects apart. If it is indeed trøndersk, then it's very aproriate considering the Viking capital is Nidaros Of course, if it was up to me they would speak Icelandic or indeed Old Norse.

The Danes and Swedes have nothing to be upset about - they got the leader, after all

 

[lordqarlyn]

I've been waiting for a thread to pop up with some angry Dane or Swede lamenting both the Viking civ and the Viking scenario.

But all is quiet! Don't you guys care?

I am of course talking about the fact that the Vikings in Civ4 speak Norwegian. Trøndersk to be exact (dialect from Trondheim). Now, the Vikings didn't speak Norwegian. Nor did they speak Swedish or Danish. They spoke Norse, which is pretty much the language still spoken in Iceland. If I were Danish or Swedish I'd be mightily upset by this. Luckily, I'm neither!

And then there is the fact that in the Viking scenario, neither Denmark nor Sweden is included in the map. All you get is western Norway. Which is oh so very, very wrong.

And I was wondering why no one seems to care..?

Hmmmm, perhaps Danes and Swedes are not as crybaby sensitive as other groups...

 

[Willowmound]

I'm pretty sure it's Trøndersk, Lars, though I could be wrong. I had to listen pretty hard to pick it.

And Danes and Swedes whine just as much as anybody else!

Edit: Just had a listen using my media player. No he's not from Trondheim. I'm pretty bad at identifying dialects myself. He's definitely from somewhere on the west coast though.

 

[FrozenRaven]

I'm pretty sure it's Trøndersk, Lars, though I could be wrong. I had to listen pretty hard to pick it.

And Danes and Swedes whine just as much as anybody else!

Edit: Just had a listen using my media player. No he's not from Trondheim. I'm pretty bad at identifying dialects myself. He's definitely from somewhere on the west coast though.

how the heck do you now how to identify certain norwegian dialects if you live in Australia?? you must have some connection with scandinavia... at least that's what I think

 

[Willowmound]

how the heck do you now how to identify certain norwegian dialects if you live in Australia?? you must have some connection with scandinavia... at least that's what I think

Well I'm Norwegian. We don't all have to live where we're born, you know!

 

[Lars_Domus]

I'm pretty sure it's Trøndersk, Lars, though I could be wrong. I had to listen pretty hard to pick it.

After giving them a second listening, I'd say it sounds more like som sort of Sør- or Vestlandsk (I believe a Trønder would not pronounce the R that way), and sometimes with a hint of Swedish intonation. As I said, I'm rubish at dialects so I might be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the person who did the VOs aren't a native Norwegian.

Edit: Ooops, didn't see your edit there.

 

[Willowmound]

The actor seems to skarre (pronouncing R's at the back of the throat (for those of you listening in to this conversation)), but roll his R's on certain words, possibly to sound more Viking. The skarre pronunciation (which is exactly how the French do it) didn't come into being until sometime during the renaissance. The Vikings all rolled their R's (as did the French!).

 

[Lars_Domus]

Ah.. If he is inconsistant in the use of "skarring", then that's propbably why it sounds so weird.

 

[Locutus]

The written languages of Islandic and Old Norse are very similar, the spoken languages are just as different as Old Norse and Norwegian or Swedish. And since it would be really hard for Firaxis to get their hands on an genuine Old Norse speaker, it doesn't really matter too much which language they took (to an outsider anyway). I wouldn't be surprised if they just took the first Scandinavian they could find, regardless of whether it was a Norwegian, Swede, Dane or Icelander. Or, quite possibly, they took a Norwegian 'cause Soren has Norwegian blood Wouldn't blame 'em if it was a little in-joke like that...

As for the scenario, it's not really a scenario on the Grand Overall History of the Entirety of the Viking World, is it? It's basically the story of one Viking tribe rampaging Western Europe. If you make a big map of all of Scandinavia with loads of Viking cities in all Scandinavian countries there (a) wouldn't be as much room for the rest of Europe, which is what really matters in this particular scenario and (b) the player wouldn't have to go out razing, ransoming, pillaging and treasure hunting Europe as you could simply win the game either by ordinary conquest or by turtling in your own corner of the map and building a strong economy. So the Viking homeland section of the map had to be as small as possible to force the player to go out on a rampage, and in that case having just a small portion of Norway makes the most sense geographically.

It's not some kind of organised conspiracy in against the Swedes and Danes and I'm sure most of them are level-headed enough to realise that (and in the Viking city list they even get slightly more cities than Norway so that swings the pendulum back a little bit in the other direction)

 

[Willowmound]

The written languages of Islandic and Old Norse are very similar, the spoken languages are just as different as Old Norse and Norwegian or Swedish.

Really? I didn't know that. What are your sources on this?

Your other points are fair. I'm not so much complaining as wondering where all the angry Swedes are...

 

[Panda]

I've been waiting for a thread to pop up with some angry Dane or Swede lamenting both the Viking civ and the Viking scenario.

Oh dear God, please no. Even though it would be fair since we allready have an eight-page-thread how racist Firaxis is towards Asians.

Hmmmm, perhaps Danes and Swedes are not as crybaby sensitive as other groups...

Swedes not being crybabies?

 

[Locutus]

Really? I didn't know that. What are your sources on this?

I've seen many sources on Old Norse mention this. One online source I have handy is: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/oldnorse.htm (note also the link to a University of Texas site which offers a detailed breakdown of the differences in modern and classical pronunciation).

 

[Willowmound]

I've seen many sources on Old Norse mention this. One online source I have handy is: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/oldnorse.htm (note also the link to a University of Texas site which offers a detailed breakdown of the differences in modern and classical pronunciation).

Very cool!

I am fascinated to see that the actual Old Norse pronunciation of individual letters is more simmilar to modern Norwegian than to modern Icelandic.

Good stuff

 

[Dagenham Dave]

Hey guys I'm Swedish. If I'm allowed to speak on behalf of the other nine million people in my country, which surely I am, I don't think Swedes identify particularly with viking culture etc. It's seen more as a historical curiosity and so forth. Of course there are some people who are interested and passionate about it but I don't think it's a touchy subject with massive influence on our national identity. (oh the identity!)

 

[hr_oskar]

Dave, lots of modern people are ignorant of their roots, I don't think it really says much about the relevance of the history itself. The term "Viking" can be either narrow and accurate (Scandinavian coastal raiders) or a blanket term for the Nordic peoples (until Christianization). Since Firaxis is using it in the wider meaning, I can't see how any Swede could not identify with "Vikings".

Regarding Icelandic and Old Norse, as an Icelander I can confirm that Locutus is right, modern Icelandic speech is clearly different from Old Norse while the written standards are very similar. This is simply because the most widely accepted Old Norse standard (which was after all a very diverse language spoken over a large area) is the one used in the Icelandic sagas, so the connection with Icelandic is no coincidence. Saying Icelandic = Old Norse is a nationalist myth.

That said it wouldn't have been that hard to get someone to say a few simple things in Old Norse. Most modern Swedes for example would find the pronunciation of the ON easy enough. The language is relatively well known, including how it was pronounced. I remember that in Age of Empires II, for example, they had some cheesy ON speech done.

 

[Combat Ingrid]

Hey guys I'm Swedish. If I'm allowed to speak on behalf of the other nine million people in my country, which surely I am, I don't think Swedes identify particularly with viking culture etc. It's seen more as a historical curiosity and so forth. Of course there are some people who are interested and passionate about it but I don't think it's a touchy subject with massive influence on our national identity. (oh the identity!)

What he said. We haven't been vikings for about a millenium so we don't really care that much, it's mostly a fun historical issue to talk about with foreigners nowaday.
We certainly identify with our viking roots but most of the the viking traditions are obsolete since several centuries. Perhaps for the best of mankind