No angry Swedes, Danes?

[Willowmound]

Some website. I've had these on my computer for a while, so I don't remember exactly.

I was doing research on the Rök stone specifically, so if you google that you might come across it.

Edit: I have the entire text in both dialects as well as a transliteration of the actual runes, if you're interested...

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Some website. I've had these on my computer for a while, so I don't remember exactly.

I was doing research on the Rök stone specifically, so if you google that you might come across it.

Edit: I have the entire text in both dialects as well as a transliteration of the actual runes, if you're interested...

Oh, I'm very interested. Please post the text or send it to me.

 

[Willowmound]

All right. PM me an email address, and I'll send it to you as a Word document.

 

[Tekee]

I don't know how you'd notice the dialect, it really isn't a big deal
But the Vikings should have been called the Norse instead, but oh well in Civiization the "Vikings" were the ones that founded Moscow and Berlin so Russia and Germany had lots to do with Vikings

But they sure were bastards always pillaging and having questionable dating techniques

*Hold Up, if the Vikings FOunded Moscow and Berlin but Russia and Germany found these cities in the game shouldn't just Russia and Germany be part of the Vikings as well?
No I'm happy they have Both Russia and Germany so I don't think most angry people wouldn't care

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

*Hold Up, if the Vikings FOunded Moscow and Berlin but Russia and Germany found these cities in the game shouldn't just Russia and Germany be part of the Vikings as well?
No I'm happy they have Both Russia and Germany so I don't think most angry people wouldn't care

I have never heard that they founded these cities and I actually don't think they did. However, most Swedish vikings traveled eastwards along the rivers of eastern Europe down to Constantinopel and all the way to present Azerbadjan and beyond. They called themselves "Vikingar" or more often "Väringar" wich to the Slavic peoples became "Varjager". For some reason* the Finns and the Eesti called the Swedes "Rootsi" wich is where "Rus" derives from. The Rus took control over Novgorod (present Russia) and Kiev (present Ukraine) and expanded these realms mainly by trade. Eventually the Rus were absorbed by the local people and the areas known as "Greater Sweden" in some west-norse texts lost it's connection to the rulers former homeland.

*These people first met with Swedes during a period when the boats had no sails but long rows of oar-pairs, and the beginning of the word rowing-man ( "rodzkarl" ) could be what Rootsi derives from.

 

[Tekee]

Ok I got my information from a comedy show )

 

[Optimizer]

Here is a thread where you can discuss how the problems of the "Viking" civilization should be fixed.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=183074

 

[Leif Roar]

But the Vikings should have been called the Norse instead

Actually, the term "Norse" refers strictly speaking only to the western parts of Scandinavia: Norway, Iceland, the Faeroy islands and Greenland, and does not actually include Sweden and Denmark. "Viking" as a term for the shared culture and society is as good name as any.

 

[Willowmound]

Actually, the term "Norse" refers strictly speaking only to the western parts of Scandinavia: Norway, Iceland, the Faeroy islands and Greenland, and does not actually include Sweden and Denmark. "Viking" as a term for the shared culture and society is as good name as any.

Actually, that's not true.

It is synonymous with the Norwegian word norrøn.

 

[Leif Roar]

Actually, that's not true.

It is synonymous with the Norwegian word norrøn.

Yes, which denotes the west-nordic culture and language:

norrøn norrøn a1 (norr norr&oeacute;nn, norðr&oeacute;nn, eg 'som kommer fra nord') som hører til el. gjelder den gamle vestnordiske kulturen i Norge, på Island og i de norske utbygdene i vest i middelalderen n- mytologi / n-t språk / islendingesagaene er perlene i den n-e litteraturen

Strictly speaking, the term "norse" doesn't include Swedes or Danes.

 

[Willowmound]

Not all sources are in agreement on that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse

That aside, let me ask you this: If you won't include pre-Christian Sweden and Denmark in the term 'Norse', what then would you call them?

 

[Leif Roar]

Not all sources are in agreement on that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse

I don't think Wikipedia makes for much of an authority on this, personally. I'd prefer to go with bokmålsordboka and Merriam-Websters.

That aside, let me ask you this: If you won't include pre-Christian Sweden and Denmark in the term 'Norse', what then would you call them?

Oh, I'm fine with extending the term "norse" to include the Danes, Swedes and Gutar as a general term -- I'm just saying that it's not "more correct" to label them all "norse" than it is to label them all "vikings," so I don't really see any reason to change the name in Civilization from "the vikings" to "the norse."

 

[Ennet]

I'm not so much complaining as wondering where all the angry Swedes are...

Well the inhabitants of what would later be know as sweden (except for the westcoast) did sail east down the russian rivers as far as the black sea and constantinople, and would not make sence to include in a western-europe viking scenario.
And as for Denmark, including them would mean that you'd have to include a lot of inland germany/france, that would not make sence with gameplay. (Unless you scaled the map so you could actually travel up rivers etc.)
Finally I'm pretty happy the choose norwegian, (althought Icelandic would've been fine aswell) sounds more exotic to us than the swedish we speak everyday. (Also some norwegian words resemble swedish words that have been taken out of use, so it kind of give it an feeling of older times. But then again there isnt much spoken dialogue all in all so doesnt really matter.) At least they didnt do like they did in that 13th warrior movie, where you could hear equal parts of swedish, norwegian, danish and maybe even icelandic (cant remember correctly).

 

[Willowmound]

I don't think Wikipedia makes for much of an authority on this, personally. I'd prefer to go with bokmålsordboka and Merriam-Websters.

You are of course right. And as that was the only source I've been able to find that contradicts you, I must admit that you are right and I am wrong.

Oh, I'm fine with extending the term "norse" to include the Danes, Swedes and Gutar as a general term -- I'm just saying that it's not "more correct" to label them all "norse" than it is to label them all "vikings," so I don't really see any reason to change the name in Civilization from "the vikings" to "the norse."

Nor do I, nor have I ever.

But I do think we should extended the meaning of 'Norse', as the term 'pre-Christian Scandinavia' is about seven syllables too long.

I'll start this trend by continuing to use 'Norse' to mean all Viking peoples. (But I might include in brackets that I (now) know it is technically wrong.)

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

Yes, which denotes the west-nordic culture and language:

And the difference to east-nordic is...? Practically none IMO.

norrøn norrøn a1 (norr norr&oeacute;nn, norðr&oeacute;nn, eg 'som kommer fra nord') som hører til el. gjelder den gamle vestnordiske kulturen i Norge, på Island og i de norske utbygdene i vest i middelalderen n- mytologi / n-t språk / islendingesagaene er perlene i den n-e litteraturen

Don't jump to conclusions here. First this source describes the meaning of the word "norrön"; "northern" or "out of the north". I think we all agree on that. Then it says "...that belongs to the westnordic culture...". What is? The word itself? A dialect-word only used in the western parts of Scandinavia? Maybe, or even probably! What the word is describing? Only western, or all of Scandinavia? This is where we need to find "norraenn" in an original source, perhaps in the Icelandic literature, to see how it is used. This of course only matters to any "want-to-be-professor-on-the-subject" , and not to the general civ-community, wich leads me to the last qoute:

Strictly speaking, the term "norse" doesn't include Swedes or Danes.

"Norse" is a modern or old (?) English term used to describe...(?)
Many Swedes sailed westwards along the western coast of Europe and to the British isles. Even more Danes did so too, and they were probably the most influental Scandinavians in England. Do you think that the people that saw them coming, in the same kind of boats and clothes, with the same kind of weapons and equipment, speaking the same language and worshiping the same gods, and sometimes arriving together, made a difference between them? Ex: "The people in the boat to the right are norse, they come from Tröndelag, but the people in the left boat are northmen 'cause they are from Sudurmannaland in Svithiod." I don't think so. IMO "Norse" would be a good term for the Civ if Firaxis for some reason don't want to use "Scandinavian". "Viking" is, as I pointed out before, not a name for a people, but a unit.

In the end, I'm quite certain that the details we are discussing here doesn't matter to anyone outside of Scandinavia. Take the Indian or Chinese civs for example. Can we even begin to understand how many differences are to be found within a civ the size of a small continent? Do we care? The basics of this game is about the competition between cultures. The Indian culture against the Persian, or the Chinese culture against the Scandinavian.

 

[Love]

They should speak norse.

And have swedish and danish cities.

like Birka.
Birka was one of the biggest cities in the whole scandinavia in that time!
Its laying on a large island in a lake not far from where stockholm is now

 

[Lobox]

And if any single Scandinavian country should be a Civ, it's obviously Norway We were as strong as any Scandinavian country during the viking era, and in the modern era we're so filthy stinking rich we could buy the rest of Scandinavia if we so wished So what if we spent centuries as a vassal to certain other countries that shall remain nameless?

Norway could just barely manage to pay Swedens finacial dept and then Your money would be empty.
Why did we let Norway go free...

 

[Leif Roar]

And the difference to east-nordic is...? Practically none IMO.

Don't jump to conclusions here. First this source describes the meaning of the word "norrön"; "northern" or "out of the north".

No, the part in parantheses is a (brief) etymylogy of the word, and "out of the north" refers to the meaning of the etymylogical predecessor. Then comes the word's definition: "that belongs or relates to the old west-nordic culture in Norway, Iceland and in the Norwegian colonies [on the western isles.]."

"Norse" is a modern or old (?) English term used to describe...(?)

"Norse" is a modern word in English, yes. It comes from Dutch Noorsch which meant "Norwegian" [1]. It has, over time, been generalised and today has also a meaning of "of or relating to ancient Scandinavia or the language of its inhabitants" (Merriam-Webster), just as the word "Viking" has been generalised in English.

It's not wrong to use "norse" about the general culture and language in Scandinavia from the 8th to 11th century, but neither is it wrong to use "viking" about this. Both words has been generalised from their original, narrower meaning.

(If anything, "Viking" is more precise as "Norse" might also indicate the entire period of the norse language -- 8th to mid 14th century.)

 

[Xipetotec]

Of course, the idea of a "Celtic" empire makes even LESS sense than the "Viking" empire, considering that the Celts had even more internal variability than the Norse (as you would expect from a people who were spread from the Danube to Ireland).

 

[LzPrst]

it's not trøndersk. it's sørlandsk. (southern norwegian). I know, I'm from that area. it's the skarring of the 'r' that gives it away.