No axes, barb swords, what to do?

[vormuir]

I'm playing Charlemagne. Classical era, I'm peacefully sharing a continent with Hammurabi. Currently researching Mathematics. I have horses but not Horseback Riding, and no metals at all.

Just got the barbarian invasion random event. Four barb swords outside my third-best city. Damn it...

Okay, now what? I see three possibilities.

1) Research Horseback Riding. Eh. It's a useless tech otherwise, and researching it will take a dozen turns.

2) Finish math and research Construction. I like Construction, and catapults are cheap and great to have around but, again, a dozen turns.

3) Crank out a bunch of Archers with the Shock promotion. Drill I lets me promote to Shock, right? So I can quickly create half a dozen of these. Probably not fast enough to save my city, but that should be enough to keep the swords at bay.

Am I missing anything? Also, on average, how does a Drill I/Shock Archer stack up against a barbarian sword? Can I rely on two archers being able to take one down?

thanks in advance,


Waldo

 

[Silu]

Just whip a few Archers. PRO Archers eat unpromoted Swords for breakfast. If there's a forest hill on their path, you can put one there in case you have time; barb invasion barbs are in "lemming mode" and stop at nothing on a direct path to their target.

 

[Meatbuster]

Research HBR may be the best option if you don't want to get pillaged to the stone age.
You will need Theocracy to put Shock on your new archers. Otherwise you will have to stick it with Combat 1 Drill 1 CG 1 ones. They are fine against swordies as long as they attack your city. Try to put them on forested hill though.

edit: cross-posted
edit2: drill enables shock

 

[cabert]

Just whip a few Archers. PRO Archers eat unpromoted Swords for breakfast. If there's a forest hill on their path, you can put one there in case you have time; barb invasion barbs are in "lemming mode" and stop at nothing on a direct path to their target.

agreed
even without barracks, you are pro, so just leave the archers inside the city and you should be fine

 

[Silu]

^ Drill 1 enables Shock as well. I would probably go with CG2 though, as it gives the same benefit as Shock in this situation.

 

[Meatbuster]

Oh I see.
Though I don't expect to see a lot of barbs that late anyway unless there's a huge tundra/ice area neaby. Have you tried spawn-busting your area? You can do that easily with available chariots.

 

[vormuir]

-- My city has only 20% defense, it's currently garrisoned by a single militia unit, and the barbs are already close. So I only have time to whip one unit. I may take one barb out with a CG II archer, but then I need to deal with the other three.

-- Spawnbusting: these aren't ordinary barbs, they're the "barbarian horde" random event.

I'm resigned to losing one city. My question here is how best to go on counter-offensive.


Waldo

 

[cabert]

-- My city has only 20% defense, it's currently garrisoned by a single militia unit, and the barbs are already close. So I only have time to whip one unit. I may take one barb out with a CG II archer, but then I need to deal with the other three.

-- Spawnbusting: these aren't ordinary barbs, they're the "barbarian horde" random event.

I'm resigned to losing one city. My question here is how best to go on counter-offensive.


Waldo

any unit will do, the barbs won't do a real guard duty
However, if you have 3 turns, you can get 2 units.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

1) Research Horseback Riding. Eh. It's a useless tech otherwise, and researching it will take a dozen turns.

This is a terrible joke. HBR is an excellent tech to have early. It unlocks probably the strongest BCs rush unit and trades well.

But that aside, you're correct that it isn't the best move vs barb swords. Whipping archers and shifting garrisons should do fine.

 

[Silu]

This is a terrible joke. HBR is an excellent tech to have early. It unlocks probably the strongest BCs rush unit and trades well.

Hmm, do you regularly tech HBR without an intention of HA rushing someone? Or maybe you have intentions to HA rush someone in every game?

I've never tried that; I have thought it'd to be awkward if you don't plan on using HAs right away. It doesn't trade 1:1 for Math (I think?) and takes some effort to trade to the other options at the time, the holy Classical trading trifecta of Alpha/Aes/Monarchy. Plus it's a dead-end tech that can be skipped completely in many games. But now that I think of it, it could be a good option to Aes in some games if you don't plan going the Drama/Music line.

 

[tycoonist]

This is a terrible joke. HBR is an excellent tech to have early. It unlocks probably the strongest BCs rush unit and trades well.

the strongest BC rush unit is the elephant.

 

[batavier]

-- My city has only 20% defense, it's currently garrisoned by a single militia unit, and the barbs are already close. So I only have time to whip one unit. I may take one barb out with a CG II archer, but then I need to deal with the other three.

-- Spawnbusting: these aren't ordinary barbs, they're the "barbarian horde" random event.

I'm resigned to losing one city. My question here is how best to go on counter-offensive.

Waldo

If you can only get 2 archers you will probably lose. As soon as the barbs take
the city they will attack another without resting or garrisoning the city. They
will probably go for your closest city.
It might be better to move your garrison out, and then use one archer
to recapture it as soon as the barbs leave and move your other archer
to defend the next target.

Defending the city is better than defending a forested hill if there is at least
20% culture.

50% (archer city defense) + 25% (barb city defense) + 20% (CG1) + 20% (culture) - 10% (sword city attack) = 105% defense bonus

forested hill is 100% defense bonus

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hmm, do you regularly tech HBR without an intention of HA rushing someone? Or maybe you have intentions to HA rush someone in every game?

I've never tried that; I have thought it'd to be awkward if you don't plan on using HAs right away. It doesn't trade 1:1 for Math (I think?) and takes some effort to trade to the other options at the time, the holy Classical trading trifecta of Alpha/Aes/Monarchy. Plus it's a dead-end tech that can be skipped completely in many games. But now that I think of it, it could be a good option to Aes in some games if you don't plan going the Drama/Music line.

I don't just plan on HA every time. However, AH is frequently an important tech for food resources and horses are more common than copper (IIRC as common as copper + iron combined). Whenever I tech AH early and see horses it starts becoming a priority to get HBR (below deity, though maybe I should start gunning for it there too).

HBR doesn't trade 1:1 for math or alpha usually, BUT with minimal partial research you can get alpha easily enough with it, and that starts the real trades just like aesthetics. In this respect, it's not bad for a tech that you're using to throw down...certainly stronger than heading ASAP iron working for example (barring a lot of jungle gems etc).

the strongest BC rush unit is the elephant.

In terms of base strength, sure. In terms of results, I'm not convinced. The only ancient/classical units I have used to rush out two+ immortal AIs in the BCs are chariots (very early hit via capitol BFC horse) and horse archers (even against the likes of mali + tokugawa).

Elephants suffer from only having 1 movement point and being considerably later than horse archers - longbows come that much sooner and now you have to rely on sluggish 1 move warfare and siege. In that regard, elephants are still excellent as with some axes you're good until gunpowder. But elephants don't cripple immortal AI production cities in 5 turns after declaration like horse archers frequently do.

 

[tycoonist]

In terms of base strength, sure. In terms of results, I'm not convinced. The only ancient/classical units I have used to rush out two+ immortal AIs in the BCs are chariots (very early hit via capitol BFC horse) and horse archers (even against the likes of mali + tokugawa).

Elephants suffer from only having 1 movement point and being considerably later than horse archers - longbows come that much sooner and now you have to rely on sluggish 1 move warfare and siege. In that regard, elephants are still excellent as with some axes you're good until gunpowder. But elephants don't cripple immortal AI production cities in 5 turns after declaration like horse archers frequently do.

i couldn't care less. cause when i enter a war with elephants, i know i am definitely going to win it. i don't ever have that kind of security with HAs, and definitely not with chariots. i never find it necessary to rush more than one AI - once you have beaten one, you have the game in the bag. just sit back with you excess land and cruise to rifles. so in conclusion - elephants = victory 100% (at least on immortal, everything changes on deity.)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

i couldn't care less. cause when i enter a war with elephants, i know i am definitely going to win it. i don't ever have that kind of security with HAs, and definitely not with chariots. i never find it necessary to rush more than one AI - once you have beaten one, you have the game in the bag. just sit back with you excess land and cruise to rifles. so in conclusion - elephants = victory 100% (at least on immortal, everything changes on deity.)

I've been batting 100% with HA's for some time on immortal now, too. Once I got used to using them it really IS automatic -----> ~ 15 HA's around or just after 500 BC and any production base the target has is gone. Any problematic AI units can be killed in the field since the AI_Defense garrisons are actually pretty small.

But the HA battles take less time...probably similar losses. If the AI gets longbows, elephant wars have material costs too.

 

[Calouste]

^ Drill 1 enables Shock as well. I would probably go with CG2 though, as it gives the same benefit as Shock in this situation.

Shock actually has a marginal advantage in that it works on the counter attack as well. If you're Protective, you can actualy protect your lands quite well from marauding barbarian Axemen and Spearman by spamming Shock Archers.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Shock actually has a marginal advantage in that it works on the counter attack as well.

Generally archers are not used offensively against swords, although shock can be useful if you want to block the swords before they attack the city, though that doesn't make much sense vs uprising barbs.

 

[Silu]

Shock actually has a marginal advantage in that it works on the counter attack as well.

If the Archer dies, it doesn't matter either way.

If the Archer survives, better to have it defend well against other unit types as well in the future.

 

[Cheeze]

Is there any possibility of luring a sword off with a worker? You'd have better chances with two archers and a warrior vs three swords than vs four, of course...but I don't know if the barbs would kill a worker before attacking the city.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Is there any possibility of luring a sword off with a worker? You'd have better chances with two archers and a warrior vs three swords than vs four, of course...but I don't know if the barbs would kill a worker before attacking the city.

It won't work vs the lemming script.