No Israel in Expansion Pack?

[picardathon]

Hmmm. Well it appears we're both wrong
http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?id=236
Looks like Jordan has an open immigration policy.
However, here's a point. If it would be okay for Israel to expel all off the palestinians from the west bank, was it okay for Hitler to create policies to force jews to flee to other countries in Europe? While the refugees from Germany and Israel are demographically different, they both were forced to leave with near nothing, though for the Palestinians this is primarily from the fact that most of their wealth was from the land which they possessed. You are acting like the life of the refugee is somehow glamorous, or at least to the point that Israel should feel no pity for expelling the palestinians. This seems a bit too close to the ethnic purity goals of the Nazis to be true. Right?

 

[Xineoph]

Oh yes, we all know very well how "well" they treat them. That must be why they have ne monopoly over key ressources.

And oh yeah, 2 days ago the Israelian company who had monopoly over oil cut off all shipments to palestine. Now tell me, how can any country survive without oil?. We are not talking about some little island where everybody uses kayaks to go hunt deer. Hospitals don't work. People can't work. Food can't get cultivated. No fast transport is acessible.

Of course, nice israelis take good care of their friends the palestinians.

Yup. We do, if this was happening in an Arab nation, the Arabs would massacre them...or have you forgotten the 1970 Jordanian massacre? the Kuwaiti expulsions? I don't recall hearing much condemnation on that. Look up your facts first, before you flap your gums.

Hmmm. Well it appears we're both wrong
http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?id=236
Looks like Jordan has an open immigration policy.
However, here's a point. If it would be okay for Israel to expel all off the palestinians from the west bank, was it okay for Hitler to create policies to force jews to flee to other countries in Europe? While the refugees from Germany and Israel are demographically different, they both were forced to leave with near nothing, though for the Palestinians this is primarily from the fact that most of their wealth was from the land which they possessed. You are acting like the life of the refugee is somehow glamorous, or at least to the point that Israel should feel no pity for expelling the palestinians. This seems a bit too close to the ethnic purity goals of the Nazis to be true. Right?

1. There is a difference between the two, the Jews never had a place to...just another nation in Europe. They had no relatives or a nation to take care of them....the Palestinians do. They are only a few million, and could easily integrate into any arab society. They share the same religion...culture...language. If an American fled to Canada, no-one would ever know he was an American.

2. I know refugee camps are horrible...that is why the Arabs don't integrate them, to keep them horrible. They want a political tool against Israel. I am not saying that the Palestinians should live in squalor, but that they should live with the Arabs, at least there they don't have to worry abour curfews, embargos & war. And we Jews would not have to worry about Terrorism anymore...just War.

 

[picardathon]

1. There is a difference between the two, the Jews never had a place to...just another nation in Europe. They had no relatives or a nation to take care of them....the Palestinians do. They are only a few million, and could easily integrate into any arab society. They share the same religion...culture...language. If an American fled to Canada, no-one would ever know he was an American.

Its incredible how much fuss can come from the fact that the heritage of two groups is different, even when they have the same culture, language, and religion. Rwanda, anyone?

 

[meisen]

I think I can see why Israel was not included in the game. I think the developers got enough trouble already.

 

[Xineoph]

Yes, but we're only arguing over Modern Israel. There are plenty of fights over China, America, Iran, Japan etc. Its called politics. But the question is, has the Hebrews made enough to be considered a worthy civ?

Half the world knows of them, they introduced Monotheism, even without land, they made a big impact, dominating trade, science and so forth.

They made a successful resistance campaign aginst the Selucid Greeks (Maccabee) & nearly got independence from the Roman empire, until the Romans brought all their forces to quash the resistance.

Successfully harming the Romans, Greeks, and culturally influencing the Christian & Muslim world, and even before the religions came to be, is a great enough reason to put them in.

 

[Armed_Maniac]

Originally Posted by Armed_Maniac
Hmmm. Well it appears we're both wrong
http://www.migrationinformation.org/...lay.cfm?id=236
Looks like Jordan has an open immigration policy.
However, here's a point. If it would be okay for Israel to expel all off the palestinians from the west bank, was it okay for Hitler to create policies to force jews to flee to other countries in Europe? While the refugees from Germany and Israel are demographically different, they both were forced to leave with near nothing, though for the Palestinians this is primarily from the fact that most of their wealth was from the land which they possessed. You are acting like the life of the refugee is somehow glamorous, or at least to the point that Israel should feel no pity for expelling the palestinians. This seems a bit too close to the ethnic purity goals of the Nazis to be true. Right?

Please do not quote me for something another said.

Yup. We do, if this was happening in an Arab nation, the Arabs would massacre them...or have you forgotten the 1970 Jordanian massacre? the Kuwaiti expulsions? I don't recall hearing much condemnation on that. Look up your facts first, before you flap your gums.

Dude. Just because others did it it doesnt make it right, or "okay". I don't care how you want to see the problem, it's condemning a goverment.

1. There is a difference between the two, the Jews never had a place to...just another nation in Europe. They had no relatives or a nation to take care of them....the Palestinians do. They are only a few million, and could easily integrate into any arab society. They share the same religion...culture...language. If an American fled to Canada, no-one would ever know he was an American.

Give me a break. Many nations live under the same flag as others. You want to tell me Texas and New York are the same? You want to say Québec and the other provinces are the same? All nations have their destictions. Religion is not the only thing that makes a people. A simplicity such as the accent can set apart people. Sorry, but most of the time, it's easy to reconise an american around here. Same goes for a european, even if they are also white, share the same past and roots, and speak the same language.

Yes, but we're only arguing over Modern Israel. There are plenty of fights over China, America, Iran, Japan etc. Its called politics. But the question is, has the Hebrews made enough to be considered a worthy civ?

Please quit it. THEY WILL NOT BE INCLUDED. Go lobby in the mods forums. THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GET THEM. And for your hebrews, you have the religion that's already included. And bonus, they are spread out just like in the real world! Happy? Didn't think so, but i don't care.

I don't know what you want to accomplish here, but even if you do get people pro-zion (though you are doing the opposite), it won't change the slightest bit what the developpers are doing.

 

[Xineoph]

Give me a break. Many nations live under the same flag as others. You want to tell me Texas and New York are the same? You want to say Québec and the other provinces are the same? All nations have their destictions. Religion is not the only thing that makes a people. A simplicity such as the accent can set apart people. Sorry, but most of the time, it's easy to reconise an american around here. Same goes for a european, even if they are also white, share the same past and roots, and speak the same language.

Dude...the Arab nations are next to eachother. They have the same religion, same language, same culture, as well as to a point differing histories. Nations have their distinctions I know that, but i'm saying that the Palestinians are just Arabs. They're not any more special...people just treat them more special for some reason. Also accents don't matter that much, you cannot tell me that the Palestinians accent is so off the top that a Syrian, Jordanian, Iraqi etc. could not understand them, I can understand Southern English just fine.

EDIT: Removed flamebait post, made it just relevant instead.

Moderator Action: Flaming - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Moderator Action: @ALL - continue this debate in a civil manner, or the thread will be closed.

 

[picardathon]

Once again, The Hutu's and Tutsi's were tearing each other to pieces even though they were demographically similiar in language, religion, and culture. The arab tribe tradition is a very powerful thing, powerful enough that the inequality to women, slavery, and poverty is still there. Muhammad was never for any of those things, the tribe tradition that existed before him brought all of those nasty things to the surface, brought the Umayyad dynasty to power, and is the reason that there is so much poverty in the arab world today. It could even be seen as the reason that Osama rose to power and is still out there today. Where is he? The TRIBAL regions of Afghanistan and Pakistan. I personally think that its disgusting, but ignoring it isn't going to make it go away.

 

[CarterField]

This is the most ridiculous thread that I have ever seen. How many of you have university educations? If you are so interested in these matters than I implore you to go to school and learn about these matters with an open mind. To be succinct, Israel should not be included in Civilization IV because every civilization in the game has one common denominator; they were an empire. As for the inclusion of racist comments in this thread, the mods should have locked this long ago. Nobody here is in the right. In fact, this thread is a fine illustration of why the situation in the middle east will never be resolved and why the rest of the world lacks sympathy for both of your causes. Go ahead and destroy eachother; the world will go on more peacefully without you. You argue with eachother without listening; refusing to recognize that eachother's faults are your own. It is for reasons such as this that I don't care about what happens in the middle east anymore.

 

[necrolyte]

Wow. You display a stunning lack of historical knowledge here.

The "arabs" didn't really begin their rapid expansion until around 1000 AD. In addition, the Islamic faith and culture was most rapidly spread not by the Arabs but instead by the Seljuk Turks, who founded the Ottoman Sultanate which was eventually to conquer Constantinople. However... that didn't occur until 1453. It was barely a backwoods "state" in 1400.

The Hebrew nation was a moderately influential, militarily successful state for several hundred years BC. It was conquered by the Romans but not fully assimiliated and was a hotbed of revolt and unrest for the vast majority of the era. In fact, both the Jewish festival of Chanuka and the Christian faith are descendants of various resistance by Hebrews against the Romans.

Following the Maccabean Revolt, which took nearly 50 years to put down, the Romans, being extremely effecient at destroying revolts, forcibly removed the Hebrews from Judea and Canaan and spread them in small clusters around the Empire, hoping that by spreading them far and wide they would end Hebrew culture altogether.

Following the Diaspora, the area was mainly settled by Romans, Phoenicians, and some small few Arabs. By 600 AD, Upper Judea (modern Lebanon) was a Christian land, and the lower area was mainly dominated by pagans. Following the foundation of Islam in the mid 800s, the Muslim faith also spread west, however the "Arabs" were not a very expansionist civilization, instead their religion spread itself across several tribes, including Turks, Mongols, Seljuks, etc.

The area was finally conquered and included in the Ottoman Empire during the Oriental Crisis of the mid 1800s. Prior to that it was owned by the Mameluk (and before that Fatmid) Dynasty of Egypt for the previous 500 years.

Modern Israel's roots begin in the mid 1800s with the foundation of the Zionist movement, which believed in resettling the "traditional" Hebrew lands.

Since I'm not sure of board policy of discussion beyond this, I'll leave the "even more modern" part off.

Suffice to say, the Hebrews and Turks deserve to be included in the game MUCH more than the Arabs. And the Egyptians should really have another leader besides the Pharoahs, one for medieval egypt, such as a Fatimid or Mameluke ruler.

The Arabs took over most of Spain to Afghanistan before the Turks even left Central Asia. The significance of the Seljuks was to reunify the disparate Arab elements that had parted ways over the years.

 

[necrolyte]

Zoroastrians "Invented" monotheism, not the Jews, according to many historical arguments.

Here's my problem with Israel, it has a tiny population and territory and even if it had a cultural impact, has rarely spent any time outside of foreign domination. Its an interesting country with an interesting history, but the only nation as small as Israel to be included as a Civ is Zululand. And the reason they're included for the most part is because they were a mighty empire on the rise before getting crushed, and held one of the few successful battles against a colonial power, and because they really encapture the variety of independent Bantu states that fought the Brits and Boers.

So it had a wide cultural impact. So did Florence and Venice. Florence and Venice aren't playable. Or Austria? Or the Netherlands? They're not playable. Not every influential culture has been represented in Civ.

The Celts are playable because the Gauls, Britons and Celtic Iberians controlled considerable amounts of land, and fought the Romans.

This is the most ridiculous thread that I have ever seen. How many of you have university educations? If you are so interested in these matters than I implore you to go to school and learn about these matters with an open mind. To be succinct, Israel should not be included in Civilization IV because every civilization in the game has one common denominator; they were an empire. As for the inclusion of racist comments in this thread, the mods should have locked this long ago. Nobody here is in the right. In fact, this thread is a fine illustration of why the situation in the middle east will never be resolved and why the rest of the world lacks sympathy for both of your causes. Go ahead and destroy eachother; the world will go on more peacefully without you. You argue with eachother without listening; refusing to recognize that eachother's faults are your own. It is for reasons such as this that I don't care about what happens in the middle east anymore.

Israel is as much of an empire as America, if not more.

 

[necrolyte]

Dude...the Arab nations are next to eachother. They have the same religion, same language, same culture, as well as to a point differing histories. Nations have their distinctions I know that, but i'm saying that the Palestinians are just Arabs. They're not any more special...people just treat them more special for some reason. Also accents don't matter that much, you cannot tell me that the Palestinians accent is so off the top that a Syrian, Jordanian, Iraqi etc. could not understand them, I can understand Southern English just fine.

EDIT: Removed flamebait post, made it just relevant instead.

Moderator Action: Flaming - warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Moderator Action: @ALL - continue this debate in a civil manner, or the thread will be closed.

Thats really silly, a nationality is a social construct, nothing more, nothing less. The Palestinians feel that their experience and general rejection by the rest of the Arab world make them their own nation. Why does that hold less weight than Isreali nationalism? Because Isrealis have a distinct language? Well Austrian nationalists are really German nationalists then. Their own food? Well, then Americans who eat Chinese food are really Chinese. Their own architecture? So on, the distinctions are wholly artificial.

 

[picardathon]

This is the most ridiculous thread that I have ever seen. How many of you have university educations? If you are so interested in these matters than I implore you to go to school and learn about these matters with an open mind. To be succinct, Israel should not be included in Civilization IV because every civilization in the game has one common denominator; they were an empire. As for the inclusion of racist comments in this thread, the mods should have locked this long ago. Nobody here is in the right. In fact, this thread is a fine illustration of why the situation in the middle east will never be resolved and why the rest of the world lacks sympathy for both of your causes. Go ahead and destroy eachother; the world will go on more peacefully without you. You argue with eachother without listening; refusing to recognize that eachother's faults are your own. It is for reasons such as this that I don't care about what happens in the middle east anymore.

1. Just because one doesn't have a university education doesn't mean one can't discuss something. If that idea held true the world would have been denied some of its greatest thinkers and activists.
2. A good deal of people have just come here and stated facts. Just because someone's made a post here doesn't mean that they're racist.
3. The statement made by Necrolyte is correct. America never had much of an empire, so really all of the civs in the game were the dominant power in there sphere of influence in their prime. As was said before, Zululand wasn't the most powerful empire in the world at the time, but they were beginning to establish a strong empire by the african standards of the time and they also won great victories against colonial powers. While Israel has been independant they were never the most powerful force in the area, it was always the Greeks, Umayyads, Seljuk's, etc.

 

[Armed_Maniac]

As for the inclusion of racist comments in this thread, the mods should have locked this long ago.

But that would no doubt create more controversy and it would be less politicly correct to close this than to let it turn into a flame war.

 

[picardathon]

I don't think that this thread still has the momentum to become a flame war. Its been a couple of days since Xineoph posted and even then he was just trying to make his points. That was the second moderator action on this thread, and the first one was beck on the first page. This thread will probably die, as all do, with the exception of the funny screenshots one.

 

[CarterField]

1. Just because one doesn't have a university education doesn't mean one can't discuss something. If that idea held true the world would have been denied some of its greatest thinkers and activists.
2. A good deal of people have just come here and stated facts. Just because someone's made a post here doesn't mean that they're racist.
3. The statement made by Necrolyte is correct. America never had much of an empire, so really all of the civs in the game were the dominant power in there sphere of influence in their prime. As was said before, Zululand wasn't the most powerful empire in the world at the time, but they were beginning to establish a strong empire by the african standards of the time and they also won great victories against colonial powers. While Israel has been independant they were never the most powerful force in the area, it was always the Greeks, Umayyads, Seljuk's, etc.

Facts? And what resources have these posters used to support these "facts"? I have seen nothing but diatrabes on whose personal view of history is accurate. A university education is essential if you wish to make an attempt to pass off the contents of this thread as fact; without primary evidence supported by a scholarly critique the arguments in here can only be described as casual discussions. It is unimaginable how some people in here have read what others have wrote, glanced at wikipedia, and have used this hearsay to sustain an argument with unintelligible rhetoric.

You're right. A university education is not necessary to have a discussion. But a proper scholarly education is required if you wish to pass off your misinterpretations as fact; witness the case of David Irving using his engineering degree to try to disprove the existence of the Holocaust as an example. He was yet another pseudo-historian who was rejected by the academic field for talking out of his ass; he is in jail today. Anyway, my point is that you shouldn't make the mistake of thinking that your interest in History is equal to an academic study of it.

As for the case that America and Israel are equivalents in terms of their "empires"... the U.S. consumes one quarter of the world's primary economic resource every day. Think about the logistics that are required to build and sustain that! After the American Revolution the U.S. embarked on their own brand of imperialism by attempting to annex British North America, capturing Hawaii, Cuba, Panama, engaging pirates along the Barbary Coasts, etc. Israel, as a nation, has wielded very little power by way of comparison to civilizations such as Rome, Babylon, Zululand, England, the Aztecs, India, etc. Israel is a country and Judaism is a religion. The latter has already been included in the game so you have nothing to complain about. If you want your country in the game than create a mod for it.

 

[Aeon221]

Carter, I do agree with quite a bit you have to say there. But I disagree with what you have to say about Israel as a power.

Since independence, the Israelis have fought non-stop for their right to exist as a nationality. This includes wars against multiple other nations, often taking advantage of holy days and nefarious tactics. Moshe Dayan has been acclaimed in multiple military circles as one of the top generals in military history for his consistent victories against overwhelming odds in situations where defeat seemed inevitable.

 

[Aeon221]

Independence was won by the Israelis without outside support, who fought against Arabs who had every intention of driving out the Israelis and reclaiming their homeland for themselves. Or worse, you never really know.

Basically, Shaka Zulu on steroids.

So stop claiming that the Israelis do not deserve inclusion because they did not meet some arbitrary definition of what merits inclusion.


The Israelis have the same right to be in that the Malinese, Japanese, French, and Brits do: they reshaped history to fit their dreams.

 

[Aeon221]

The obvious reason for no Israeli inclusion is the same anti-Semitism that drives Jews from countries around the world to the one place where they can protect themselves, as a good number of these posts make clear. If the devs were scared about the possible backlash from including religions...

Just as a side note, I am Catholic, not Jewish. I'm also anti-bull dung.

My browser also cannot support long posts, and crashes on them. Sorry.

 

[CarterField]

There have been two extremes exhibited on this thread; anti-semitism and anti-gentilism. I do not believe that racism is the reason that the developers used to justify excluding Israel from the game; anti-semitism should not be used as a scapegoat. While military victories are essential to determining the extent of a civilization's influence... they do not substantiate an adequate claim that justifies Israeli inclusion in this game. Witness the spanking that Italy received when it attempted to annex Ethiopia. Should that military victory translate into modern Ethiopia becoming a working civ in Civ IV? Military pressure is often applied when a state's influence is at a breaking point. As for Israel being included because it is the equivalent of England and France is illogical. The first controlled nearly one quarter of the Earth's surface whereas the other transported democratic ideologies across the nations of Europe and was the primary rival of the world's most powerful nation for well over two hundred years. Once again, I stand to my original argument. Judaism belongs in Civilization IV but modern/ancient Israel does not; modding exists for a reason.