No Israel in Expansion Pack?

[atreas]

Your choice, i'm not getting involved in that discussion. All i know is that Israel belongs to the Israelis. We have nowhere else to go, and the Palestinians have many arab countries to go to.

I have never before seen so clear a proposal for ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians! Are you sure you mean what you wrote - it happens to be criminal.

 

[Xineoph]

i thought it did the job quite nicely.

I never realized, accomplishing nothing, does the job. You will have to teach me this logic.

that depends on your definition of an arab. alot of countries speak arabian, i speak english, i am not an englishman. the arabian peninsula doesn't include alot of the "arab world". most kurds don't consider themselves arab either, so the term arab is subjective, and essentially meaningless.

1. Normally it is someone who is descended from Arabs...but whatever your guess is.
2. Whats your point? I realize language doesn't mean everything, but it does mean something sometimes.

3. Kurds aren't ethnically Arabs anyways...so your point is moot.

and if you think the germans were going to gear up for another holocaust had there been jews to kill, well there are still jews in germany today, right? and nobody's killing them, right? it most certainly would have created the same ill will and hostility we see in palestine today, but at least germany in 1945 deserved it. palestine, after the dismantling of the ottoman empire, has been nothing but a pawn in a game it really has nothing to do with, except as i stated, they lived in the wrong place in the wrong time. you're logic is drastically incomplete on all fronts. how do you justify the removal of an entire nation from it's roots? i see you chose not to address that part of my post.

I'm sorry, but this post is just incoherent...I'm guessing your saying something of us getting rid of the Palestinian Arabs...which is stupid, as they left due to the ensuing war on us, and not wanting to share the land. So yeah...

 

[Xineoph]

I have never before seen so clear a proposal for ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians! Are you sure you mean what you wrote - it happens to be criminal.

It's not ethnic cleansing, if they're going next door to their own house...-.-

Think of it as kicking out an unruly guest.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well The territory the Jews have now they have because the UN/British gave it to them... after
taking it from the Ottomans
who took it from the Arabs,
who took it from the Crusaders,
who took it from the Arabs,
who took it from the Romans/Byzantines [who kicked out a number of the Jews that were there]
who took it from the Jewish state before them,
who took it from the Greeks,
who took it from the Persians (who let the Jews back there)
who took it from the Babylonians (who moved a number of the Jews out)
who took it from the Jews (who slaughtered the Canaanites),
who took it from the Canaanites,
who took it from the ????, etc.

So in terms of documented years of history of controlling/residing in the Area the Jews have about as much claim as just about any other country within 100 miles (with the possible exception of Greece which didn't control it that long unless you count the Byzantine period)

The fact is under current international law the state of Israel has the full right to administer the pre-1967 boundaries (who had it in the centuries before is irrelevant). What Israel is doing now is trying to calm down/kick out an unruly neighbor. (*not their territory, but the people there are affecting their territory)

As for Civ... if you actually had civ "Skins", that let you get up to a few hundred, you should have all sorts of 'shouldn't exist' civs

 

[atreas]

It's not ethnic cleansing, if they're going next door to their own house...-.-

Think of it as kicking out an unruly guest.

In other words, "Let's whipe the 1500 years of history that we don't like and just keep the 1500 years we like". I will leave for others (i.e. moderators) to decide if this isn't a clear invitation for something criminal and racist. I just hope that there aren't many in your country that think like you.

 

[Salamandre]

Your choice, i'm not getting involved in that discussion. All i know is that Israel belongs to the Israelis. We have nowhere else to go, and the Palestinians have many arab countries to go to.

Anyways this is off topic.

I hope your mates will disagree with you on this inhuman statement. HERE, in this THREAD. If they dont, then we finally maybe hear the true voice of jews.

 

[Armed_Maniac]

Since only quoting it would make it politicly correct...

Why bother arguing with these jews. it won't get you anywhere, they are too ignorant and arogant.

No Israel in EXPANSION!!!! Noone cares!

if they were, Traits would = greed and arrogance and they wouldnt have any friends in the world.

lol...

I couldn't counter what you are saying for their inability to let this slip and make their own mod... That and all that bickering that they deserved Isreal...

 

[naterator]

I'm sorry, but this post is just incoherent...I'm guessing your saying something of us getting rid of the Palestinian Arabs...which is stupid, as they left due to the ensuing war on us, and not wanting to share the land. So yeah...

first, let me respond to the last part, fleeing a war zone for fear of ones lives does not constitute transfer of ownership. the "voluntary" part of the palestinian exodus is debated still, obviously you believe one side and i believa another, but i can't imagine that a whole nation would say "let's just abandon our entire nation, and then spend the better part of the next century trying to get it back" it sounds more like an expulsion to me. anyway, as for your premise that they "didn't want to share", of course not!?! if someone suggests i "share" half my house with him and his extended family, he'd better suggest it with a gun, which is probably what happened at least in a majority of cases. as for not making any sense, let me break it down for you:

and if you think the germans were going to gear up for another holocaust had there been jews to kill, well there are still jews in germany today, right? and nobody's killing them, right? it most certainly would have created the same ill will and hostility we see in palestine today, but at least germany in 1945 deserved it

a little disjointed, i admit, because i cut out the middle and reworked the paragraph, my point is that many jews in fact did stay right there, in the nation of their worst nightmares, and while i'm sure cultural wounds there still exist, there hasn't been any mass exterminations lately. however, had we, as i suggested, given part of germany to become the state of israel, that indeed there would still be the same hatred and hostilities we see in palestine today, it would just be in germany instead. it'd be germany trying to wipe out israel instead of a regional middle eastern alliance. ([edit]-not much of an improvement, i'll admit, but at least palestine wouldn't be dragged into it) and anyway, by your logic, they germans should take removal with good cheer, after all, there's plenty of germanic countries in the area that they can go to, right?

3. Kurds aren't ethnically Arabs anyways...so your point is moot.

right, but they live in "arab nations", which is precisely my point! you act like there's a massive block of "arabs" from morocco to pakistan, but it's alot more complicated than that, and even if they were all arab, what makes you think that any of them want an entire nation of refugees on their doorstep? or that they have the resources to deal with this? there's alot of logistics in uprooting a nation and starting from scratch, which maybe given their history, israelites should've considered before they set up camp.

 

[Atropos]

Just a footnote to the debate: Jerusalem was a majority Jewish city well before the wave of Jewish immigration in the early twentieth century.

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Man, include 'em as barbarians or resource(reduce income, increase unrest), at least that titles they deserve.
Edit: Just can't resist! Make 'em available in map after Animal Husbandry research))))))

 

[Aeon221]

Roar I'ma big bad troll!

Gonna eat all your heads!

... which is my way of saying that this thread should have been locked long ago.

 

[Atropos]

It's not quite as simple as "Israelis move in with guns and kick out Palestinians." The order of events:

1. Wave of Jewish immigration, partly fleeing from Hitler. They enter legally and buy property to farm (ideologically very important as they felt a need to prove that Jews can do "real" work).

2. Wave continues and begins to frighten Palestinians (not strongly differentiated from other Arabs AT THIS TIME), who begin to fear becoming a minority. They lobby the British mandate holders.

3. British debate various plans for a cap on Jewish immigration but are split and cannot reach a conclusion.

4. Palestinians fear that debate may go nowhere and attack British.

5. Jews fear that debate may go somewhere and attack British.

6. British get the heck out of Dodge.

7. Palestinians and Jews attack each other. Jews win.

8. Jews kick out Palestinians.

 

[Xineoph]

If we kicked them out, then we would not be having this discussion. It would probably be looked at as a dark day in history by the world probably.

The government, asked the Arabs to stay instead of flee, and integrate to other Arab societies. Which probably would've been better at the end.

 

[Alptegin]

modern israel represents nothing of david and solomon's (may peace be upon them) kingdom. not even religion-wise.

there is already the judaism in the game.

if you want a race/ethnic group.... then u are better off with having something like khazaria or ashkenazia, as the ruling/founding group of modern israel is of european extraction..

 

[Sharule]

The palestinians deserve a right to have a homeland. I personally agree with Palestine having all the pre-67 territory, except Jerusalem. Ill tell you why. When Jordan annexed Jerusalem they burned down the Jewish district, they slaughtered any Jews left in the Old city. They forbid Jews from visiting the Western Wall. What did Israel do when they captured the old city in 1967? They left the Muslim District in tact, they let all the Muslims stay, they even let the muslims control the Temple Mount(on which the Dome of the Rock sits).

modern israel represents nothing of david and solomon's (may peace be upon them) kingdom. not even religion-wise.

Keep your religious views to yourself. I have no problem with Islam, but you are trying to incite people by saying that. I could bring in my religious views, but then where would we get?


But when the hell did this topic become about Palestine? I thought this was about Israel as a civ. Not about Politics and ethics.

 

[picardathon]

If we kicked them out, then we would not be having this discussion. It would probably be looked at as a dark day in history by the world probably.

The government, asked the Arabs to stay instead of flee, and integrate to other Arab societies. Which probably would've been better at the end.

Okay, I'm pro Israel, but I'm cutting you off RIGHT HERE
You don't really seem to have any understanding of the history of Islam whatsoever, and assume that Arabs are all one unified religious mass which is unilaterally against israel. While the second case is true for the most part, you don't seem to understand something.
The people went to Palestine. They went to America. They stayed where they were (Many were forced, due to the DP camps, which were basically prisons) but those who could fleed for their lives.
The greatest threat in Jewish history, as well as the lowest point of Judaism BY FAR (I mean worse than the post revolt Roman Palestine) was the period of Jews in medieval europe, and renaissance europe, and modern europe up to 1991 (The communists in eastern europe hated the jews also). Here's a recap of everything bad that happened to the jews after the death of christ (Prior to 1492 Spain was an exception to this, and Muslim Spain was in fact a true haven for the jews and a golden age in Judaism happened there. In fact the muslim world up to about 1453 only got better and better for the jews until the Ottoman Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent decided to start the tradition of the sultan killing his brothers and locking his sons in the harem, without any access to education. This is the reason the Ottomans failed in conquering Europe (they were on the gates of Vienna) and also the reason the empire, as well as the islamic world, began a sad, pathetic decline into colonialism by Europe) (The other time Europe was about to be conquered was in 750 A.D., 100 years after the death of Muhammad, when the momentum of Islam from his death was still going. The muslims were stopped at Paris by Charles Martel "The Hammer" and a major stroke of luck, many of the muslim armies retreating due to panic caused by a false proclamation that the Europeans were stealing the hard pillaged muslim loot.) anyway, onto the list.
Christ dies
Jewish revolt in 100 something A.D. brings on the Diaspora, Rome hoping to extinguish the Jewish culture and religion the same way they did so to the cartheginians.
Jews don't get extinguished.
Christianity becomes national religion under Theodosius, had already decided that the jews killing christ would get into the bible at the council of Nicaea, under Constantine (If you're looking for someone who's really ignorant, find someone who calls jews "Christ Killers (Yea, I'm looking at you Mel Gibson!))
Fall of the Roman empire increases the churches power, as they are one of the few guiding institutions left.
As feudalism develops Jews not allowed to farm, forcing them to ignore Usury and become moneylenders, merchants and such to get enough to eat, this eventually feeds into the idea that jews are fat lazy parasites. Jewish persecution was also due to peasant's fear of the literacy rate among Jews, as well as their traditions and holidays, which the peasants found strange and frightening.
Crusades and the age of faith are new highs for jewish persecution, Muslim jerusalem had many jews in it, and Jews back in europe were persecuted with renewed vigor.
The Crusaders bring back the bubonic plague, or the Black Death, which the Jews are subsequently blamed for. The Jews were often blamed for many of the diseases caused by the Europeans' bad hygeine.
The Spanish Inquisition, or the expulsion of the Jews and Muslims in 1492, ends the jewish golden age in spain. Many Jews who were given a pass based on their importance to the government leave anyway, showing solidarity with their fellow Jews. This, as well as the jewish expulsion from England in the 1200's, begins a western migration of jews as the populace in the lands immediately west of spain/england compain, which leads to bannings, moving the jews further west. This explains why Eastern Europe had so many more Jews than western europe.
The Protestant Reformation caused more persecution. Initially believing the Jews would convert to a protestant church once the incorrect church traditions and general greed was taken out, Luther eventually becomes a major anti-semite, and would have applauded Hitler on his work in the Holocaust.
The death of Alexander II, a great reformer Czar, due to his assasination by communists, is blamed on the jews due to the presence of one jew among the assasins. Jewish persecution escalates as Alexander III and Nicholas II encourage the pogroms. Immigration to Palestine increases.
The holocaust. Hitler could never have killed such a large percentage of the Jewish population without the assistance of the local population, who were glad that the "Christ Killers" were about to be exterminated.
Also, the muslim culture is a complex and astounding work of cultural diffusion, and the majority of the bad stuff, such as inequality to women and slavery, was in the middle eastern tribal culture. i'm pretty sure that the Palestinians are not called that based on what religion they follow, but where they live, which loosely dictates their tribe. These tribes, though all muslim, basically fight on as they did before Muhammad as if nothing happened without any form of control, such as imperialism or when each tribe gets its own country.) The Jews and the Palestinians are both hated by the muslim leaders and aristocracy of the middle east, and they love the fact that they are beating each others brains out. Think of it as a cockfight. The anti-semitism of the white paper and the general refusal of any country to hold jews DID continue, and the idea of putting Israel in europe would have seem hilarious to Roosevelt, Churchill, and especially Stalin. Even after the holocaust the anti-semitism still remains, and religious violence is a major issue in france today.
And lets be honest here, we are debating about the Israel/Palestinian issue because the issue is fun to debate about.

 

[Xineoph]

Alright, your post is sorta hard to read because of the lack of spacing and paragraphs...but tell me if I understand this right.

You disagree with my post and tell me I have no knowledge on Islam. That is true...i have knowledge on culture & history of culture...but not the religion. I cannot take back my comment...because it would be like calling the truth a lie. Palestinian Arabs are no special then any other arab, other then the fact we are extra nicer to them for some reason.

Then you seem to phase off into Jewish history, and for a brief while Medieval history, with the turks and invasions.

The idea of making a Jewish nation in Europe is very laughable and would have worked out very well, due to the fact the Jews didn't want to really be in Europe that much anymore. Stalin tried something in the far-eastern part of Russia near Korea...but that didn't work out as we know.

And to be honest...i do not find this issue to be fun to debate. I would rather there was no issue to debate about. The fact we are debating stems that there is a problem, and I do not want problems in Israel, and I doubt anyone here does, aside from complete idiots.

 

[picardathon]

I'm sure nobody wants any problems in Israel, but you tell me that this topic didn't get to 11 pages because some people like to debate this topic.

The issue is that both people have the right to the land, while it seems like you are stating that only the Israeli's do. My point in talking about the tribes is that the other arab peoples mock and ridicule the palestinians, calling them rock throwers and such, and that the Palestinians as an ethnic group were abused by all of Israel's neighbors before the Infatada's, because there is no arab country with a specifically palestinian leadership. The idea that "there are a bunch of arab countries for them to go to" is absurd, because, once again, the arabs aren't one unified mass, but a bunch of different tribes who were warring against one another before muhammad showed up. Muhammad stopped the inequality to women, slavery and such for a while but the tribal stuff always gets to the surface. Everyones fighting for land and rescources, especially water, and kicking the palestinians against their will from their homes to even more oppression in other arab countries is just not right. They were there for about 1000 years at least after the expulsion of the jews. Arafat was horrible, Hamas is horrible, but Hamas wasn't only the party for the destruction of Israel. They were the opposition, the ones who would try to "fix" the problems fatah wasn't able to. Salamandre has said this before, the Israeli's taking a hard line will never work, because there are too many people there and treating them as sub human will never work, because they do fight back. Lebanon has shown that there is no such thing as a military solution to a diplomatic, religious, and cultural problem, and the idea that using the army to cleanse a population is absurd, as shown, once again, by Lebanon.

 

[Xineoph]

Dude...Palestine as a nation only existed for 30 years. From 1918 to 1948.

Before that the region was just known as Syria-Palestinia. Syria from the Assyrian empire, and Palestinia to insuit the Jews who lived in the area by naming it after their enemies.

There was no Syria...no Jordan or Saudia Arabia or Iraq. These are all new nations created after WW1 when the British took them from the Ottomans (Save Lebanon & Syria which went to the French)

Normally the other arabs could care less...but the only reason they don't want to take them in is because it's the only way to harm Israel. They can't attack them militarily, so they attack them politically, by not allowing the Palestinian arabs to assimiliate, and to keep them in refugee camps, it forces Israel to shell out money to them, and still look bad internationally regardless of how well the Israelis treat them.

And also please start using paragraphs and spell check.

 

[Armed_Maniac]

regardless of how well the Israelis treat them.

Oh yes, we all know very well how "well" they treat them. That must be why they have ne monopoly over key ressources.

And oh yeah, 2 days ago the Israelian company who had monopoly over oil cut off all shipments to palestine. Now tell me, how can any country survive without oil?. We are not talking about some little island where everybody uses kayaks to go hunt deer. Hospitals don't work. People can't work. Food can't get cultivated. No fast transport is acessible.

Of course, nice israelis take good care of their friends the palestinians.