No more 1UPT/"Support" units

[Eagle Pursuit]

lol. in the late game instead of having 9 units to move, the player will have 9 corps to move & the hassle to unite all those units into corps.

maybe I am not clear enough.

Yes, ultimately this is still 1upt. I am not complaining though, I like 1upt.

I wonder if there are still promotions and if promotions on a support unit affect the corps.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Late game, instead of having 9 units to move to the next city to attack, you can group them into 3 more powerful units, and only have to move 3. How is that not superior?

More importantly, it gives you choices which units to combine, which I see as interesting strategic twist to 1UPT.

SoD was wholly strategic: it was all about composition of your stack and when to use it, but almost never about "how" (beyond: point stack at enemy tile). 1UPT is mainly about the tactics, i.e. the "how" - which choke points to use, which order to activate them, how to focus fire and keep distance between your ranged and the enemy's melee units... but there was a lot less long-term strategy involved.

Corps sound like you get the tactical decisions that come with 1UPT but the strategic element of stack composition. This could be quite interesting if the AI is good (another downfall of 1UPT and I say that as fan of 1UPT in principle).

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

More importantly, it gives you choices which units to combine, which I see as interesting strategic twist to 1UPT.

SoD was wholly strategic: it was all about composition of your stack and when to use it, but almost never about "how" (beyond: point stack at enemy tile). 1UPT is mainly about the tactics, i.e. the "how" - which choke points to use, which order to activate them, how to focus fire and keep distance between your ranged and the enemy's melee units... but there was a lot less long-term strategy involved.

Corps sound like you get the tactical decisions that come with 1UPT but the strategic element of stack composition. This could be quite interesting if the AI is good (another downfall of 1UPT and I say that as fan of 1UPT in principle).

Everybody knew about the downfall, but given that Ed/Dennis word it as "we knew about this in Civ 5" sounds like they will attempt to get a Day 1 working without issues, and if the map is less congested because the AI uses more Corps/Armies, then it makes sense that the AI would have more room to navigate.

 

[learner gamer]

The core unit types need to stack together. From the way it was worded, it sounds basically like keep the melee/range/cav types, anything else which doesn't fit those clear categories is support (siege/anti-air/anti-tank).

It should clear up a lot of the congestion just from the "super units". Previously an army of 9 crossbows will now only take up 3 tiles.

Yeah, that's my understanding of how the system will work. I wonder if it will help the AI become more competitive? After all, I'm guessing that it will reduce the difficulties the AI had in Civ 5 putting it's units into a formation. Instead, the AI will now simply need to remember to stack a melee/range/cav type unit with a support (eg. siege) unit to create a quasi formation.

 

[JeszKar]

I'm sad because that means there is no battle map. So archers still can shot over the English canal, ant AI still will have hard time to control the units.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I'm happy with the words I heard. It sounds like they understood the advantages of 1upt (which, to me, was the best out of all the Civ combat systems, which have never been ideal), but realized the flaws and have worked to de-congest the map.

To me, most suggested solutions were the worst of both worlds - 2upt or 3upt but letting you pick any units. That meant you'd still have a map full of units, but you'd lose the tactical advantage of getting behind enemy lines and hitting softer units behind, etc. This doesn't do that, it makes you realize that stacking the same type of unit is less problematic and it lets you specific "support" units get embedded. Hopefully, it doesn't overshadow the tactical feel that I think made the combat system at least more interesting.

Is it going to make everyone happy? No. People who want the game to be more of a sim when it comes to map size won't be happy. But they wouldn't be happy when they read the new city development since the map appears like it'll blur things even more with cities as the city limits spill over three rows of tiles. But the question is whether it'll be more fun to play.

 

[Talcove]

I'm sad because that means there is no battle map. So archers still can shot over the English canal, ant AI still will have hard time to control the units.

Unless they improved the AI's combat capabilities. All we have right now are 3 screenshots and some semi-vague promotional Q&As. Let's wait for some gameplay footage or demos until we strike Firaxis down with our fury.

 

[Louis XXIV]

That is my biggest concern with this. They've improved combat AI, but it still has a lot of flaws and that hasn't gone away. That being said, I don't see this necessarily being worse. The new changes seem like something the AI can handle relatively effectively.

 

[GeoModder]

I'm wondering if the 'support' part means that when two (or more) units combine, one keeps the main offensive role, while the support is there for defensive purposes. For instance, an infantry unit with an anti-tank in support still gets reamed when attacking an enemy tank unit, but when this enemy tank unit attacks the anti-tank supported infantry, the tank is defeated or forced to retreat.

 

[Talcove]

That is my biggest concern with this. They've improved combat AI, but it still has a lot of flaws and that hasn't gone away. That being said, I don't see this necessarily being worse. The new changes seem like something the AI can handle relatively effectively.

The removal of global happiness will probably also help out the AI. This is actually what I'm most excited to find out more about. In Civ5 I had a bunch of things I would have loved to see, and many are making their way in to Civ6, but those biggest one was a vastly improved AI. I really disliked that the way the AI got harder on higher difficulties wasn't by getting smarter, but by getting a ton of bonuses. Of course most people will always be able to out think the kinds of AIs put in to video games now a days so some form of bonuses will be mandatory, but I do hope for enough of an improvement that it feels like a legitimate challenge.

 

[dexters]

It's 1upt still. The support units mentioned like anti tanks and anti air are units in civ5 that are underutilized because they're too difficult to justify deploying in quantity. AA units got better but allowing these units to be deployed with core attack/defense units makes most sense. They would work just as well if these were unit promotions. Actually it would be indistinguishable. Glad they are instead adding them as support units. Adds way more depth to the 1upt system and puts combined arms back into play in reality.

So imagine a technologically advanced civ with good AA tech deploying mediocre defensive units. Would be hard to pick those units off just by air you'd need to send in land units as well.

 

[dexters]

That is my biggest concern with this. They've improved combat AI, but it still has a lot of flaws and that hasn't gone away. That being said, I don't see this necessarily being worse. The new changes seem like something the AI can handle relatively effectively.

I see support units as almost like promotions. Less units for AI to physically handle it just needs to know for example that it will need to send out its land armies with the proper support units/promotions. Not much different than AI prioritizing certain promotions in civ5

 

[Pepo]

Well if it is still 1UPT, ai will still probably suck. What I'm most interested is if they make bigger maps as now city sprawls. With bigger maps 1UPt may work, but if not, we will get the same lame ai as in CIV V

 

[dexters]

Well if it is still 1UPT, ai will still probably suck. What I'm most interested is if they make bigger maps as now city sprawls. With bigger maps 1UPt may work, but if not, we will get the same lame ai as in CIV V

It still is 1upt with support units allowed to stack in to augment the base unit. So like a mobile infantry with AA support.

 

[Dale]

lol. in the late game instead of having 9 units to move, the player will have 9 corps to move & the hassle to unite all those units into corps.

maybe I am not clear enough.

I question your playing ability. You only ever needed 6 units to win any game of Civ5.

 

[Lucius_]

Corps sounds like Civ III armies. I loved them but that's mostly because they were a one unit wrecking crew.

 

[MIS]

True. Also CivIII allowed non-army stacking, and workers stacking.

 

[Louis XXIV]

The removal of global happiness will probably also help out the AI.

Has this been confirmed? I missed it. I know corruption/limitation on expansion mechanisms aren't sexy, but I'd love to know more.

I see support units as almost like promotions.

That was my interpretation, which is why I like it. It's promotions you build and can transfer between units if you want. My only fear is if they do things like classify archers as support units and thus defeat the whole point of flanking to attack soft units.

 

[Talcove]

Has this been confirmed? I missed it. I know corruption/limitation on expansion mechanisms aren't sexy, but I'd love to know more.

Global happiness is gone and has been replaced with city-specific happiness, it's been confirmed.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Global happiness is gone and has been replaced with city-specific happiness, it's been confirmed.

I don't want to hijack this, but where did you see this? I can't seem to find it.