Noble sub-300 turn space attempt

[Anysense]

In a State Property game Kremlin may not be that great, but with corporations you are still expanding when you get Communism and if you do not use strike you will also need courthouses everywhere. This is a hell of a lot of whipping made 1.5 times cheaper, especially if not Organized.

WastinTime contemplating the the idea of early Communism https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-10-year-veteran.574724/page-37#post-14842705

 

[jnebbe]

@krikav I figured if you could stack overflow but I actually have no idea
say a city's base production is 65, build a warrior and get 50 OF, build the next warrior, get 50 more OF but I don't know if you still get the 50 from the 1st OF for a total of 100

Side note, I quickly finished my test game and got t279 victory and I didn't really know what I was doing all game; I think sub 250 is definitely doable

@Anysense Would you recommend sushi or mining 1st then? I'm feeling mining then which would help with courthouses a lot

 

[floydmcw]

Oh I've done sub-t200 twice. Once as the Dutch, once as the Egyptians. Just to show it's possible without fin.

Deity is trickier but B&S with a ridiculous Inca start...not impossible, if you ask me.

Realized just now that I was parsing all these dates as Epic (because I've been playing Settler/Epic). That's why I was saying nonsense like "T225? Lol no" and "T193? Mind blown!" (It's still very impressive mind you.)

 

[civac]

@jnebbe: Overflow is capped by the maximum of the cities production and the unit cost.

 

[konata_LS]

I don't know what tech I should go for, the big question mark is liberalism, there's definitely value in grabbing a late tech with it but I'd also like to run free religion for +10%.
Naturally this is leading towards sushi+mining but I have no idea which I should prioritize first and how best to get there.
I was also just thinking construction+engineering->elepult the rest of my continent->chemistry while I'm at war

If you really want +10% from FR, and since you're IND, already have Aestherics and gold mines, Shwedagon Paya (double production speed with gold) would be a possible solution: it unlocks all the religious civis and enables you to run FR long before Lib.

But in this case, the downside would be polution, because if you build Shwedagon Paya, you may end up with unwanted GProphet.

 

[pigswill]

In terms on 'unwanted' Prophets its worth asking how many holy cities you have. A shrine can add some decent base gpt. There's no such thing as bad commerce.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

In terms on 'unwanted' Prophets its worth asking how many holy cities you have. A shrine can add some decent base gpt. There's no such thing as bad commerce.

If you're going to use a great prophet to build a shrine, the closest comparison point you should be using is a great merchant executing a trade mission.
A trade mission yields 1500g at floor level but easily 1800+g given some time.

So, to break even, a shrine yielding 30g/t would require around 50-60 turns. That is a lot (immediate requirements being considered, snowball and all).
Therefore, only the first shrine could justify burning a prophet and, preferably, very early on. Seraiel used to build his own shrine to respectable results.

On pollution, however : that is very much needed for golden ages. A key part of space races is triggering 4+ GAs. As such... you know.... random gpp can't hurt.
Also, gpp "purity" is often emphasized in break-out games. One shall not care as much about purity when manoeuvering a 20+ cities Empire. Because, then, that is a situation where a bulb will pale in comparison to other effects (be it a trade mission or that dreaded GA).

 

[Anysense]

@Anysense Would you recommend sushi or mining 1st then? I'm feeling mining then which would help with courthouses a lot

There are two reasons in favour of Mining first: it is more powerful and brings immediate benefit while Sushi takes time to kick in. However, you can get Sushi much sooner than Mining. Ten turns sooner means 43 cities will have Sushi by the time you could have had Mining if you went for it first. How are you going to survive this stage is unclear, get into super early strike? Then you need 2 times the number of resources for 1 as you need for 1, although it is often possible gain 2 or 3 resources with one city. And you will also need workboats.

On pollution, however : that is very much needed for golden ages. A key part of space races is triggering 4+ GAs. As such... you know.... random gpp can't hurt.
Also, gpp "purity" is often emphasized in break-out games. One shall not care as much about purity when manoeuvering a 20+ cities Empire. Because, then, that is a situation where a bulb will pale in comparison to other effects (be it a trade mission or that dreaded GA).

Yeah, you just need to plan a bit more carefully. I used 2 out 3 GS produced by NE city for Golden Ages, so it would not hurt if 1 or 2 or them turned out artists. Same for Great Merchants that had potential to become prophets due to Paya's contamination. Shame I could not fit Stonehenge+Mids+Zeus into my GP plan, so many GPP wasted.

 

[pigswill]

I agree that the more Golden Ages the better, you can use hammers for Taj instead of GPs for one of them, if you're aiming for 4 Golden Ages then Taj becomes worth up to 3-4 Great People which isn't a bad trade You'll get a few freebies as you dominate research: music GA, economics GM, physics GS, Communism GSpy and Fusion GE iirc.

On the subject of a shrine the financial benefit will increase if you spread your chosen religion widely for OR boosted builds and whips. If you're running corporations then Wall Street and Corporate HQs in your shrine city will have some synergy.

 

[krikav]

I imagine that a rather huge benefit of making a early shrine is the significant boost in passive religious spread. The hammer savings of missionaries could be rather large.

 

[pigswill]

Even better if someone builds it for you (Isabella!)

 

[jnebbe]

Spoiler :

Make this trade with mansa and start building elephants+catapults immediately




I went with @konata_LS suggestion to build shwedagon, OR isn't doing much for me since none of my new cities have my religion, and this lets me delay lib to get something with a much higher beaker value

Waiting to build Glib until Memphis pops the GE





1 step closer to optics I guess





Nationalism finished, I want taj to line up with my upcoming war




North land is finally done settling.
I finally switch from serfdom back into caste, all my new cities were only working priests and a lot of other cities had lots of extra food. This alone doubles pt to over 300






Paper finished, wilhelm will trade his map, not particularly useful but kind of interesting.







Here I head towards railroad, to simplify things I will get mining 1st and just build courthouses everywhere
Engineering 1st since it will help get reinforcements to front lines a bit quicker (also notre dame will be really nice later on), then towards chemistry.

3rd GP was a scientist, after waiting a few turns for pop to grow it lets me bulb printing press
I don't know what I should use lib for. Was thinking steam power to start building levees, maybe assembly line for factories would be better, or maybe just railroad and start spreading that asap.





Dow peter, initial plan was to kill peter and continue north and keep mansa/gandhi alive as long as possible since I'm getting a decent amount of tech from them.
However, mansa builds the AP. This thing has ruined so many of my games in the past I usually just turn religious victory off. I don't know the inner workings of it but I'd like to get it out of play quickly.

Taj finished and head towards steel

Killing off peter will be pretty straightforward but I'll need to think about what to do next






New cities are now a decent size
Most new cities are just working farms+scientists while the old cities are mostly production cities

At the moment I have 15 mining resources in my borders but the rest of the continent only has another 5, I should probably still conquer the entire continent but I need to start thinking about the domination land limit and maybe start working on raising it soon.
There's a lot of iron in the north arctic islands, I should probably start preparing to settle islands for corp resources, astrononmy will make this a lot more convenient but doesn't offer much else





Tech situation

 

[pigswill]

What civics are you running? Cities? Land %?

450-500bpt at 700ad ain't bad but you've still got a bit of research before you can go Corporate.

AP can be solved by adopting AP religion, maybe spamming some missionaries: once you're Resident you're in control. Alternatively you could just burn it to the ground.

 

[jnebbe]

What civics are you running? Cities? Land %?

450-500bpt at 700ad ain't bad but you've still got a bit of research before you can go Corporate.

AP can be solved by adopting AP religion, maybe spamming some missionaries: once you're Resident you're in control. Alternatively you could just burn it to the ground.

Rep, Caste, Bureau, Mercantilism, Free Religion.
30 cities, 35-40 workers, probably 20-25% land area, don't remember
Bpt will grow a lot in the next 10-20 turns, all new cities are still focused on growing and only working a couple scientists each

 

[jnebbe]

Spoiler :

Gandhi trades me his map which gives me circum, I was just 1 tile away from getting it with a galley earlier






Time for some math!
I am at 35% land area with 405 land tiles; I counted up the rest of the tiles on my continent+nearby islands which came to 237 tiles, and there's another 16 tiles in gaps between my cities that I will eventually get.

405/0.35 -> 1157 total land tiles -> every 11.57 land tiles = 1%
405+237+16=658 -> 56.87%

So capturing my entire continent will make me win domination and I also need a couple spare % to raise the limit comfortably. I need to start working on that now.


Steel just finished. First I will go astro, trying to move settlers around for raising limit with just galleys will be way too slow and inconvenient
Next I will tech replaceable parts->steam power; needed for mining and also lets me start building levees+mining any coal I may have watermilled over
Next tech will be economics to lock in that GM, and finally constitution->corperation->railroad





Pretty straightforward war, I want to just conquer mansa+gandhi right now, roosevelt+pacal have no notable wonders and have a lot of unimproved land. There's also more corp resources in the south here.





Moved capital to Buto, more centrally located and almost all bfc tiles are riverside





Mansa's first move as AP leader is to plunge the world into war by forcing us to declare on peter. I attack gandhi at the same time cause why not





2 galleons are shipping troops to the lightly defended islands.

Now that the golden age is over I want to do a proper benchmark for later games.

T160:
33 cities, 43 workers, GE+GM for corps and a GS ready to bulb whenever.
Ingame population is 23.4m whatever that means
435 land tiles
550pt at 0% , 800+pt when you account for running 100% every couple turns

 

[Fish Man]

Spoiler :

Gandhi trades me his map which gives me circum, I was just 1 tile away from getting it with a galley earlier






Time for some math!
I am at 35% land area with 405 land tiles; I counted up the rest of the tiles on my continent+nearby islands which came to 237 tiles, and there's another 16 tiles in gaps between my cities that I will eventually get.

405/0.35 -> 1157 total land tiles -> every 11.57 land tiles = 1%
405+237+16=658 -> 56.87%

So capturing my entire continent will make me win domination and I also need a couple spare % to raise the limit comfortably. I need to start working on that now.


Steel just finished. First I will go astro, trying to move settlers around for raising limit with just galleys will be way too slow and inconvenient
Next I will tech replaceable parts->steam power; needed for mining and also lets me start building levees+mining any coal I may have watermilled over
Next tech will be economics to lock in that GM, and finally constitution->corperation->railroad





Pretty straightforward war, I want to just conquer mansa+gandhi right now, roosevelt+pacal have no notable wonders and have a lot of unimproved land. There's also more corp resources in the south here.





Moved capital to Buto, more centrally located and almost all bfc tiles are riverside





Mansa's first move as AP leader is to plunge the world into war by forcing us to declare on peter. I attack gandhi at the same time cause why not





2 galleons are shipping troops to the lightly defended islands.

Now that the golden age is over I want to do a proper benchmark for later games.

T160:
33 cities, 43 workers, GE+GM for corps and a GS ready to bulb whenever.
Ingame population is 23.4m whatever that means
435 land tiles
550pt at 0% , 800+pt when you account for running 100% every couple turns

Nice job!

I’m sorry for being so persistent, but...do you have the t0 save?

 

[ZPV]

Spoiler :

T160:
33 cities, 43 workers, GE+GM for corps and a GS ready to bulb whenever.
Ingame population is 23.4m whatever that means
435 land tiles
550pt at 0% , 800+pt when you account for running 100% every couple turns

Nice going!
I'd estimate you have roughly 60 turns until launch - maybe a little more, maybe a little less - I can't quite see the exact amount of infrastructure you have.
So if you're doing the Sushi "thing" and trying for maximum resources, you'd better get those islands settled ASAP!
At any rate, it'll be cool to see if getting down into strike works at this level and gamespeed - and how quickly it ramps up your tech rate.

Around about now, you can see the payoffs for early expansion - the faster you expand in the earlier eras, the higher your population and level of infrastructure is at this point (tile and city improvements), and the faster you can get through these expensive techs.
If you want a benchmark to stretch yourself in a future game, 1500+/turn at 100% science is possible in the late renaissance/early industrial era, and 1 or maybe 2 Great Merchant trade missions goes a long way to being able to sustain that slider position until you get the powerful techs.

 

[jnebbe]

@Fish Man The hof record for this category is only T279 which I think I can easily beat, may as well submit it, and you can't share hof saves until after you submit

 

[jnebbe]

Nice going!
I'd estimate you have roughly 60 turns until launch - maybe a little more, maybe a little less - I can't quite see the exact amount of infrastructure you have.
So if you're doing the Sushi "thing" and trying for maximum resources, you'd better get those islands settled ASAP!
At any rate, it'll be cool to see if getting down into strike works at this level and gamespeed - and how quickly it ramps up your tech rate.

Around about now, you can see the payoffs for early expansion - the faster you expand in the earlier eras, the higher your population and level of infrastructure is at this point (tile and city improvements), and the faster you can get through these expensive techs.
If you want a benchmark to stretch yourself in a future game, 1500+/turn at 100% science is possible in the late renaissance/early industrial era, and 1 or maybe 2 Great Merchant trade missions goes a long way to being able to sustain that slider position until you get the powerful techs.

Thank you
Most cities have gran/forge/library/courthouse or are working on building those. Doesn't make sense to go strike now with so many courthouses imo.
I should be able to settle many island cities after my war and still have enough land to raise the limit, will be a lot of planning for sure

 

[konata_LS]

It looks things go very well.

Moving capital is not a burden for IND leader, as Palace aldo benefits from the discount on National wonders.

In terms of Lib, since you're very ahead in tech, taking Railroad, AL or even Plastics could all be considered. On Noble, the player has many options open; on Emp+, the choice start to become more limited.