Nobles' Club 276: Frederick of Germany

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Frederick of Germany, whom we last played in NC 228; we last played the Germans under Bismark in NC 213. The Germans start with Hunting and Mining.

• Traits: Frederick is Organized and Philosophical. Organized cuts Civic Upkeep in half, and gives a +100% bonus to Lighthouses, Courthouses and (in this case) Assembly Plants. Philosophical gives all cities +100% generation and a +100% bonus to Universities.
  
• The UB: The Assembly Plant, a Factory with 2 additional Engineer specialist slots which gets a +50% bonus towards it's own construction when you've got access to Coal. Factories are staple buildings in basically any game that reaches Assembly Line, and the combination of Frederick's Organized trait and the Assembly Plant's inherent production bonus allows you to industrialize faster than anyone short of a SPI leader flipping into a quick (and painful) bout of Slavery.
  
• The UU: The Panzer, a Tank with +50% vs. Armored units. In >99% of all situations Panzers are just bigger, beefier-looking tanks with no relevant bonus. In the <1% situation where you're fighting a tank war, however, you'll be thankful that these guys turn one of the most dangerous units of the industrial era into target practice. As for Modern Armor, all else being equal Panzers actually get winning odds against them, albeit only barely. Of course any situation in which that's relevant is a situation where you're probably doomed regardless, but that's still not bad for a base 28 unit facing a base 40 unit from a later epoch.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Continents, Tropical climate, medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

The usual resource swaps, and one unworkable Fish was moved somewhere workable.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not isolated.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 276 Frederick Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Tricky, or maybe that's just me. 3 city tile and auto-connected Stone is, of course, absolutely gorgeous, but a T0 2 city tile with an extra Corn and Crab, not to mention some more land tiles, is nothing to sneeze at either. Not sure which is better, really. +1 on the capitol city tile is great, likewise not having to build a road and quarry to connect the Stone, but two food resources and not moving towards coast is also good.

What do the experts think ?

 

[sampsa]

I wouldn't go on stone blindly, but the question is should you spend a turn with the scout to check for seafood? Perhaps not, SIP is great anyway.

 

[AcaMetis]

The question is what to do with the scout if not using it to check for seafood. 1W -> 1SW would reveal a lot of land to the west, but barring something crazy like wet corn and double gems or something would you spend...at least two, maybe three turns moving the settler in that direction?

Actually maybe 2W wouldn't be a horrible decision? Not on a hill and ruins a forest, but further inland, keeps fresh water, keeps double corn, guaranteed auto-connected second city on the stone, doesn't need Fishing tech for food (though might want it anyway to work lakes?) or early workboat, might be something worthwhile further west that the scout can find...not sure . To send the scout west or to send the scout south-east...

 

[sampsa]

First tech is agri which all (deity) AI have, so the value of meeting AIs before T5 does exist (I think it's 2, not sure). When starting with a scout, I'd just sprint towards the best guess of the center of the map, then revert to scouting the nearby area.

 

[sampsa]

Actually maybe 2W wouldn't be a horrible decision?

Not horrible, but loses the cc-, kills forest and loses turn. Just too slow to my taste at least.

 

[AcaMetis]

First tech is agri which all (deity) AI have, so the value of meeting AIs before T5 does exist (I think it's 2, not sure). When starting with a scout, I'd just sprint towards the best guess of the center of the map, then revert to scouting the nearby area.

Right, I always forget about that. In that case I guess 1W -> 1SW would be ideal, since it reveals the most while moving in the only direction AIs are likely to be (snow-capped forests indicates you're close to the north pole, east is coast, so AIs are likely west and/or south).

Not horrible, but loses the cc-, kills forest and loses turn. Just too slow to my taste at least.

Probably is, I tend to put a greater focus on making sure I've got land (moving inland) and barb management (capital culture covers more area) than necessary.

 

[krikav]

I think I like SIP best.
Fishing and Sailing wouldn't hurt to get somewhat quick. All those lake tiles would be dandy with a Org lighthouse.

Settlement on the stone could be very fun too, espionage bonanza!
Freddy with stone is especially nice. Phi for faster Gspies (first one from TGW), and org for cheaper courthouses and spy specialists.
Possibility for pyramids and rep early too.

For inland settlement, NW->NW seems nice, keeps most good tiles. But land outlay looks like it would allow 3-4 cities even with SiP so probably not worth it to lose a turn and lose the extra hammer from SiP.

 

[shakabrade]

SIP is really strong. Stone settling allows you to start improving the corn exactly the same turn as SIP and, for me, PH stone is a good tile to work. From SIP you can improve all the visible food and share it with second and third city for faster growth.

 

[jnebbe]

Looks like a fun start, might play this tomorrow

 

[konata_LS]

Interesting map. The start is poor in commerce but has other advantages, because

Spoiler :

there is large room to expand, and our neighbours are all quite far. More important: none of the AI on our continents can plot at pleased. Besides, all the AIs on our continents have relatively high WFYABTA, so it's not hard to find trading partners even before Optics. Plus, none of AIs (including the other continent) is FIN, which means we don't need to worry about a run-away AI like Mansa Musa or Hanni. In terms of diplomacy, this map is less difficult than NC 191.

Prince level, normal speed. Stopped on T 227. Though I played NHNE, some coincidences surprised me .

Spoiler :

SIP. Tech Agri-TW-BW. Worker farmed the corns and mined the stone. Peacefully expand to 10+ cities. I didn't try Mids or SH even for failgold as I was too busy building settlers and workers. After I built enough workers, all the early wonders were already gone .

Pericles found Hindu, but AC found Judaism . Sandwiched between two zealots ? ...

I chopped the grassland hill tree in my capital and mined the hill. Several turns after IW, and that grass hill became iron


The land available is quite large but there was no river. The only commerce-rich tile early available was a gold mine. The economy was desperate after the initial expansion and I was ranked as "the least advanced civilisation" . I had to use my first GS to bulb alphabet so I could build research and finish Currency. Things went much better after Currency.

The first GG was born in 500AD. A little surprising, because the other continent was supposed to be a happy Buddhist family .


After Optics, I found out that Giggle once declared war on Charlie (as Giggle can plot at pleased), and now Charlie DoW on Giggle :



Took Nationalism with Lib, attacked with Cuirs. Conquered the whole continent by T 227 and now had 20+ cities.


The tech situation on T 227 was quite good after the long wars because some important renaissance techs (Education, PP, Chemistry...) were bulbed by GS. PHI is really a strong trait.


Stopped here. I may continue playing tomorrow or later. The plan is to go for Industrialism and Combustion, build UUs + marines + fleet, then launch a naval invasion to conquer the three other AIs.

 

[jnebbe]

Megarusty Immortal T0-84

Spoiler :

I wonder if that rice was supposed to be uncovered


SIP, no visible rivers and only a couple grasslands in bfc, commerce will definitely be a problem.
See the east island so GLH seems like the best play

Go fishing->BW->agri->sailing->masonry->wheel
Fishing 1st since those 2 coast tiles will be enough to get the required techs till GLH finishes

Build was warrior->work boat->settler->workboat->warrior, a little greedy but fogbusting was fine












2nd city founded, copper is pretty nice for barbs
And yes I did farm the wrong corn






Prebuilt galley to whip->OF into glh





Its not often I get a tech trade before T100, but may as well, lets me build granary in 2nd city+lets me go AH next




great wall failgold, very nice




GLH finished T65, kind of messy since I forgot/didn't know whips into wonders only give 15 hammers. Berlin grew to size 7 off of 3 food tiles and whipped to 4.

Berlin is going to whip out settler, grow to 4 and whip another settler/worker






3rd city founded, can share the clam and then 1-pop a lighthouse and work coast tiles






T76 and pyramids already built . Usually pyramids are built at like T110 so this seems extremely early, means that stone will be pretty useless unless I wanna try like aquaduct->hanging gardens






4th city founded, getting that gold+sheep hooked up asap




South land
I'm thinking IW next? Swords would be nice for that barb city which is in a nice spot, lets me grab ivory as well as the rice+bananas
Tech rate is still really good, I'm thinking aggressively grow to like 8-10 cities and go for a late elepult?

 

[sampsa]

@jnebbe

Spoiler :

I think I'd just try to get IW via trade even if it's delayed a bit. T84 you are at 4 cities and considering rex to 8-10, then elepult? I like ambitious play, but that will be very late and hard to pull off tons of . For me, the normal play would be cuirs (good techrate, PHI). Boring, I know.

While the map is pretty nice for GLH, I'm pretty sure I'd rather have Mids, because there is an abundance of .

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

I wonder if that rice was supposed to be uncovered

Rice can be covered in Jungle, obviously more common to see on Tropical maps. Jungles can also grow on resources if they don't have an improvement on them.

Jungle can't grow on all exposed resources, though. Only resources that can naturally be covered in jungle, I believe .

 

[jnebbe]

Spoiler :

Rice can be covered in Jungle, obviously more common to see on Tropical maps. Jungles can also grow on resources if they don't have an improvement on them.

Jungle can't grow on all exposed resources, though. Only resources that can naturally be covered in jungle, I believe .

I was wondering if the map generated with the jungle there or if I just got really unlucky and having it spread by T2

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

...IIRC neither forests or jungles can grow diagonally, so it must be a natural spawn.

 

[Wrathful]

My playthrough on Immortal up to T103.

Spoiler :

I unfortunately didn't remember to add Archery to the barbarians until around fifty turns in, though to be fair I didn't see very many barbarians in general.

I settled in place; abandoning a corn and moving to the edge for the stone city center didn't seem that great to me. Both the GLH and the Mids seemed quite good here. PHI, stone, and good food tilted me toward the Mids route. I wasn't happy to see Augustus in the game; in my experience he loves to build the early stone wonders (Great Wall in particular). But oddly enough he missed Great Wall and built Stonehenge instead. He also got GLH, so I was glad I didn't make a play for it. Mids were finished in 1280 BC and I scrambled to claim what land I could before Churchill got it all.

It's always fun to see brilliant AI city placements...

Skipping ahead to T103, I'm at 7 (good) cities, sustaining 159 beakers per turn with very low costs thanks to ORG, building wealth, and gold per turn trades. Have gotten CoL and Currency. The AI's haven't given me Math yet sadly. I'd say there are plenty of ways to go from here. My plan is to get Astronomy somehow. A direct bulb is one option, but I am leaning toward Libbing Astronomy at the moment. The main reason is that I want Civil Service. Granted, my capital isn't great, but Bureau is still a good boost, and I also want to spread irrigation to run more specialists. PHI would make it easier to get the necessary bulbs (philosophy, 2x education, lib itself).

So with this plan, I would fill out the cheap religious techs while waiting for the last guy to get Math (so I can trade for it), then get CS, bulb philosophy (already have a GS waiting for this), get Paper, put two bulbs into Education, hopefully trade for MC and Compass, put a bulb into Lib, then clear the rest of the Astro prerequisites and finish Lib. We've denied a lot of the economy-boosting wonders from the other continent, so I don't think there is any danger of them winning Lib out of nowhere. One great person will probably start a golden age at some point. That could be a good use for an engineer if I get one.

One problem is that I don't seem to have iron anywhere. Maybe there is an island somewhere where I can claim iron (another reason to prioritize Astro). A "fair and forthright" trade like this one could help:

Then I can upgrade my unit of choice (Trebs, for instance) and smash my copper to cancel the deal after a turn. I think I've seen Lain do this before. But if I'm going to do this, it's crucial that Augustus remains pleased, I don't think he'll agree to the deal if he's cautious. In the ensuing war I would have to quickly claim my opponent's iron. Luckily, both Churchill and Augustus have iron near my borders. Churchill is probably the guy to go for here; he's a bit of a pariah, being in his own religion, and he's also expanding a lot.

Something else worth thinking about is the attack unit of choice. I don't think I can stomach another Cuirs-fest, even if it is objectively the best play, so it will have to be something else. Cannons and co. is very reliable and probably what I will end up using.

 

[konata_LS]

Prince level, normal speed. From T 228 to the end.

Spoiler :

Use a GS to start a golden age, switched to Rep, FM and FR. Research Steam Power-Corporation-AL-Combustion, build UB and Coal Plants in high production cities. Then SM-Physics-Electricity-Industrialism-Rifling. Use great people to start another GA, switched to Vassalage and build 50+ UUs, 10+ marines, some transports, destroyers and a few battleships.


Since Giggle and Charlie were too busy killing each other, I attacked Washington first. After Washi's capitulation, declared on Charlie and Giggle (he capitulated to Charlie). After Giggle disappeared, Charlie quickly capitulated.


Next turn, conquest.


I start to wonder if Panzers + marines may be overkill for Prince AIs, as no AI got Rifling or Military Science until the end of the game . Some of them even didn't have Replaceable Parts or Printing Press. The strongest units that Panzers killed in this game were Charlie's Cuirs .

This map offers a good practice of SE and GS bulbing, as there is plenty of food but generally commerce-poor. Thanks for providing the map .

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

But if I'm going to do this, it's crucial that Augustus remains pleased, I don't think he'll agree to the deal if he's cautious.

According to the AI guide Augustus will trade extra strategic resources at Cautious. Mind you that I believe it will be more expensive if he's cautious compared to if he's pleased, so if you don't have a lot of GPT and/or spare resources you might not be able to afford it if he's cautious. Of course so long as you can afford it it doesn't matter how expensive it is, since you can indeed do the trade and force-cancel it on the same turn by destroying your access to all spare resources that are part of the trade.

 

[jnebbe]

Immortal T84-129

Spoiler :

Churchill takes my next city spot





Great merchant born, I was pretty tempted to bulb currency, would get some nice trades and extra trade routes are nice. instead I sent him down to search for pericles and his ToA





Berlin getting ready for the caste switch

It's T100 and churchill already has 10 cities





Yeah churchill go ahead and settle my spot 1 turn before me

My merchant successfully reached pericles and nets me a fat 1100 gold
Beelined CoL and went into caste, then headed towards music





1st great person gamble and I successfully get the scientist I need!





Bulbed philo which opened this trade, in the back of my mind I was still thinking elepult could be an option since Im getting boxed in faster than I thought, and I'll need this later if I want to go cannons






Get the music GA on T118, golden age and get pacifism, tech civil service, then go into slavery/beuru/paganism on last turn of GA





Couple turns later the 3rd scientist finishes and bulb education

Also not pictured I stole the barb city to south-west, up to 8 cities now




Very far ahead in tech, liberalism should be pretty free. churchill is definitely becoming a problem, problem is I don't have iron and even then I don't want to cuir rush against protective. I think rifles is definitely the play, not sure if going for trebuchets or cannons is better.