Nobles' Club 281: Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

[sampsa]

I look at it as a +2 hammer tile

How? It's +2+2.

and/or the run at Stonehenge which I think is pretty strong with this start.

I'd much rather have AH than Stonehenge to be honest.

 

[krikav]

Regarding initial tech and how I think:

Spoiler T5 :

I saw alot of jungle in the west to I sprinted straight in a NE direction with the warrior in hope to find someone.
Stumbled upon my old friend Genghis Khan who is putting all his points on me. Might be a semi-iso situation.
Not really that many piggies and sheep around, and there is gold up there. If he doesn't settle that spot with his second city, I want to rush him there.

I plan on going mining->BW->Masonry and I likely want 3 workers before I reach it.
I was kind of tempted to go for TGW no matter the setup, to possibly fiddle with espionage, but now I'm tempted to route all barbarians to Khan while me and my dog soldiers laugh at him.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler Question about Neighbors: :

With Genghis as our neighbor, how many overlapping culture tiles can we have while poking the bear? Does the Faction score (0 vs our +8) matter in Human-AI relations?

Spoiler :

I don't remember exactly, I think it's 8 land tiles have to border each other before you're considered a Land Target? Maybe 12 tiles? Either way you don't have much leeway before you're considered a land target and the odds of ol' Genghis plotting on you increases dramatically. Of course Genghis might decide to plot before any borders touch or he might decide to never plot even when you throw Stonehenge-fuelled culture cities at his face with reckless abandon, depends on his mood. Either way settle cities on hills and strongly consider Hunting -> Archery if you don't have metal (for Spears) and are concerned about a Keshik rusk.

Faction score doesn't matter to human players. Otherwise Genghis would start at Annoyed if not Furious right out the gate .

 

[krikav]

I don't think you can look at it as a 6-yield tile.. I look at it as a +2 hammer tile and I'm not saying AH isn't important just not at the beginning. What is the opportunity cost of those beakers out of the gate? I would argue it delays getting slavery, writing and a library online for taking advantage of our philosophical leader, and/or the run at Stonehenge which I think is pretty strong with this start. Sure if I had gone AH early it might have changed my settling decision on my first city but putting it off didn't change the fact that I could grab the XXXXX spot as my 2nd city.

Please, no spoilers about resources outside of spoiler tags damit!

 

[user330977]

Turn 51/750:

Spoiler :

Settled 1W on the stone and went Worker first of course. I opted for AH first (horses just to the north ) and then Mining -> BW. Met all AIs except one. Dogs and chariots/HAs should pose a potent threat for the early game and barbarians shouldn't be a problem. Second city went on hill 3E of the capital. Bananas are farmed and gold brought into the empire. Next city will go north to bring horses and more gold, but jungle is covering the food tiles. How are folk handling IW in this game? Is it worth self-teching or always trade?

Kind regards,
Ita Bear

 

[Ianrudy]

How? It's +2+2.

I'd much rather have AH than Stonehenge to be honest.

Because currently I can farm it for a +1 to make it a 4f1c tile without any additional tech investment. Going AH off the bat only increases that to a 4f2h1c tile hence the +2h for the tech investment (pasture is still only +4f same as farm). I'm not talking about not getting AH either.. I'm talking about not right away. How is that more beneficial than a free unique building in every city with Stonehenge plus the border pop you get from it? It slows your expansion and ability to found your second city and get a gold mine online and fix your pathetic starting research rate.

Please, no spoilers about resources outside of spoiler tags damit!

Sorry my bad! I'll fix it

 

[sampsa]

Because currently I can farm it for a +1 to make it a 4f1c tile without any additional tech investment. Going AH off the bat only increases that to a 4f2h1c tile hence the +2h for the tech investment

Ah. A decent point, though it costs some worker turns, too. Krikav uses 5 per turn as value of worker turn (=value of chop).

 

[Ianrudy]

Spoiler :

Ah. A decent point, though it costs some worker turns, too. Krikav uses 5 per turn as value of worker turn (=value of chop).

That's all well and good but it costs 149 BEAKERS in a VERY poor commerce start. For giggles I restarted and went the AH route and it is significantly slower because of that research investment cost. Look at when I found my 2nd city and thus able to get a gold mine online because of BW. It is 1 turn difference to farm the cows vs. pasture. So 5h? I can access all those trees surrounding my capital earlier because I have BW.

 

[AcaMetis]

Please, spoiler tags.

EDIT: Also, @krikav, might wish to spoiler that quote as well .

 

[krikav]

BW is in, but not AH.

Spoiler T39 :

After the worker was done I worked a 2F1H forest to reach 2/22 food, with the farmed corn that would get me to pop2 and yield 1 overflow from the warrior while leaving no food in the bar.
Went settler right after that, narrowly missing finishing it 1-2 turns earlier due to landing at 96/100.
Khan scared me by strolling along around the resources.

Once I was this far, I just settled. Couldn't risk losing the spot for floodplains.

This will cause some border tension. Should I try to steal his copper...? Maybe he won't have metal if I do?

Dogs will be obliterated by chariots, if he connects metal and starts to plot I'm in big trouble. Maybe I have to gift him a city?

Perhaps I should have scrapped the whole TGW idea. Haven't seen many barbs, and the AIs are swarming around me with scouts/archers.
But it's hard to abandon a good idea once you start!

This is a ridiculus start btw, second city already halfway to pop3, 3 workers and a wonder.
I want riverside PH-stone every game! But next time, how about two of them, and irrigated?

 

[krikav]

@Ianrudy I don't think this is a very commerce poor start. You got a river and we start with agriculture and a agriculture resource. There is certainly flexiblity in how to play this opening.
We see forests, so ofcourse mining->BW is an option that could lead to excellent results.
If there are more spots with agriculture resources and forests around them, such an approach could be very powerful.

But at T5, maybe there is riverside piggies around reachable by a river connected second city?
Maybe we pop BFC horses? Could go AH and abit later writing through AH and ignore TW/Pot altogether and do a library powered HA rush.
Phi leader so math bulb could be in the cards and in that case overextension with BW-chops would be completely misguided.

I went the BW route, but when I first looked at the starting screenshot AH was my first though. It was stuff that I saw T0->T5 that made my deviate from my idea of AH first.
Others playing the map might come to other conclusions.


Don't underestimate the 2H you get from a pastured cow instead of a farmed one. It's the same differance that you have with a vanilla 1H city center city, and the supercharged 3H city center one could settle on this map.
One 20H forest have to fall every 10 turns just to keep pace with the pastured cow, thats 0.4 "ghost workers" running around and chopping in an infitite forest for you.

 

[civac]

Don't underestimate the 2H you get from a pastured cow instead of a farmed one. It's the same differance that you have with a vanilla 1H city center city, and the supercharged 3H city center one could settle on this map.
One 20H forest have to fall every 10 turns just to keep pace with the pastured cow, thats 0.4 "ghost workers" running around and chopping in an infitite forest for you.

Having +2 hammers on the city tile is very obviously a different kind of animal than +2 hammers on your second best tile once it is improved. Moreover, chopping gets you hammers upfront which are more valuable.

I have got the impression playing against deity AIs warps priorities quite a bit. In an MP setting or on lower difficulties it seems obvious you'd want to go BW here and chop and whip settlers until there are no spots left. However, if there is a strong AH resource at the best second city location this evaluation would change. Krikav is right about that.

 

[sampsa]

@Ianrudy you are again speaking of spoilery things outside of spoilers. Please.

It is 1 turn difference to farm the cows vs. pasture. So 5h?

No. You lose 5 workerT in total if you first farm it, later pasture it. And 2 per every turn between these, it adds up pretty quickly.

 

[krikav]

Please, spoiler tags.

EDIT: Also, @krikav, might wish to spoiler that quote as well .

Ofcourse... I'm a moron, fixed and thanks!

 

[Ianrudy]

But at T5, maybe there is riverside piggies around reachable by a river connected second city?
Maybe we pop BFC horses? Could go AH and abit later writing through AH and ignore TW/Pot altogether and do a library powered HA rush.
Phi leader so math bulb could be in the cards and in that case overextension with BW-chops would be completely misguided.

I understand what you are saying but the reality is that it is SLOWER in the first 50 turns which matters more than anything. Could of would of should of.. play the map as you see it not what you wish it to be. You start with 3 food resources.. 2 of which you have the starting tech to improve right away and the third is "ok" with that starting tech. I made the decision NOT to go AH on turn 0.

Spoiler :

No other AH resources anywhere I'm going to settle my city on the stone.. hope you moved your settler 1S before you settled on the stone..

So I know there isn't anything else but trees and jungle around me. I see tons of trees so BW for production is a viable option and yes I'm on a river but within my BFC there are only 3 tiles that produce commerce (1c each at that and one is my city square.. AH doesn't change that either). That to me is a poor commerce start because the only way I can even get to the river tiles is by chopping. Add to that my unique unit requires no bronze to get online and combined with that it comes from one of the best techs in the game and that tells me mining->BW right from the get go. When I say poor commerce start I mean commerce generation in the first 25 turns. No gems.. no gold mines.. nothing to cottage (and the tech to do that is 2 techs away PLUS we still need to chop to be able to cottage). I don't know guys you can argue about future potential HA rushes all you want (and trust me I do them a ton.. I grew up learning from @shakabrade on how to execute HA rushes and I know I would want a granary first) but AH before BW is a mistake IMHO.

My biggest gripe about the map is there isn't anyone close enough to worker steal from..

 

[sampsa]

Ianrudy you do realize you are playing monarch and telling deity players how the game works?

 

[krikav]

@Ianrudy I'm very glad that you are here and posting. It certainly spices up the forums alot.
I think that your reasoning is mostly sound too.

But I don't like being so quick and denote other possible playthroughs as "mistakes". The proof is in the pudding, and if someone would to blow me away with a AH first start here I would be delighted.

 

[Ianrudy]

No. You lose 5 workerT in total if you first farm it, later pasture it. And 2 per every turn between these, it adds up pretty quickly.

Why are you ignoring the research cost in these per turn hammer calculations? How do you factor in the research cost at the beginning of the game when your research output is at the lowest it will be all game. The key to the first 50 turns is to rule OUT research just as much as to decided what to pursue. Would you not agree with the following priority?

1. Starting techs for food within BFC - we start with a tech that can improve 2.5/3
2. Barb defense - roll the dice for horses or go with the absolute certainty of Dog Soliders?
3. BW for Slavery/chop <- best early production period and even more valuable because of our start (3 food resources plus tons of trees.. and no I'm not saying clear cut before Math but you need all the accelerants you can get at higher difficulties because it's the difference between getting that good city spot and missing out on it)
4. Pottery for Granary
5. Writing for Library

 

[krikav]

@sampsa I love how you have to argue AGAINST early BW and chopping.

 

[Ianrudy]

Ianrudy you do realize you are playing monarch and telling deity players how the game works?

Just because I've lurked and not posted much doesn't mean I wasn't playing at a high level.. so let's please leave the personal attacks out of it. I'm happy for someone to prove that an AH start can produce a city faster and more beakers at the end of 50 turns than going with BW. That is ALL I'm an contending is that AH as the FIRST tech is the wrong choice for this map. I've played and won on deity and was a consistent immortal player.. just playing monarch to relax and get back into the game and remember my micro and decisions like this. This is still IMHO the best game every made.

But I don't like being so quick and denote other possible playthroughs as "mistakes". The proof is in the pudding, and if someone would to blow me away with a AH first start here I would be delighted.

I'm happy to learn and be corrected if I'm wrong.. but I'd love the proof that AH first ON THIS MAP is better