Nobles' Club 303: Washington of America

krikav

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I tried to replay from T78 (When I founded confu) and followed an more production greedy approach.
(T120)
Spoiler :

I did some more whippings (of settlers) before revolting to HR+Caste. Also went abit less for later cottages... The grassland trio around the capital for example only get their first few turns right now.
Western area also got farms, not cottages.
That Chicago stole the pigs from Seattle will result in a later possible astro, but T127 (if it's a GSci) is still very good.
San Francisco is pop8 and Philadelphia is pop9.
I think I like this path more!
Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

 

BornInCantaloup

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Everybody was kung-fu fighting
I also did some replaying and improved my T65 to a T62, so that was fun :
Spoiler :


Isolation is very nice to practice those early scenarios. I might be done with this map, though, unless I try my hand at some other wonders.
Same opening : AH, Wheel, Pottery, Mining, Myst, Poly, PH, Masonry, Writing.
Settler at size 2, farmed floodplains. Washington produces a 2nd worker then grows to 6 (!).
New-York grows to 4, starts a settler (Boston), then grows to 5 and completes its Warrior on cue (!). Size 5 New-York makes the 3rd worker.
Washington at 6 starts a settler (Philadelphia).
Philadelphia is settled on the turn the settler is completed (3 tiles roaded) and on the turn Masonry is researched and the settler is completed with max overflow (99H/100).
Well, that took some dabbling...

Some cool pics in no particular order :
Spoiler :


It takes 3 turns for New-York grow to 5 and it lacks 4 hammers to complete its garrison warrior.
Look at that little 1H of overflow, isn't it cute ?


Spoiler :


Both cities at 10F/24 doing 7F/turn. That farm is extremely useful to optimize growth between the two cities and it was a huge mistake to erase it in my first run.
Highlighted tile is the travel tile, 1N of New-York. The cottage completes next turn.


Spoiler :


Getting the overflow we deserve and delaying the maintenance hit from Philadelphia.
Road, Masonry and Settler done next turn.


I think I like this path more!
Spoiler :
You're better set up for production when it will matter. I agree the milestone (Optics or Astro) is not everything that matters.
Also good point on Caste. Switching too early would be detrimental to settling the western/northern cities.

:goodjob:
 

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soundjata

Be like water
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Deity T66
Spoiler :
Started with spamming warriors (6) using every hammer tile available.
lost 2 warriors, including the initial one ~T10 (lion:run:)
T36 the island is ours.


Mining > TW > Pottery > BW > Myst > AH > Writing

We build 2 settlers then a worker, then we switch to slavery

T66 we have 3 hamlets, 4 cities, one settler and 3 workers.
4 granaries, 2 monuments. A couple of libraries on the way.
Chop moar :aargh:


Problem with Optics beeline is all the tech on the way (MC, Machinery, ...) do nothing do they?
 
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krikav

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@soundjata
Spoiler :

Yeah, after writing/sailing and the possible detours that are common (monarchy... perhaps aestethics, perhaps CoL, perhaps sometimes alpha...) then you are just in for a long slog toward optics.
Part of the charm is optimizing the path toward it, calculating beakers requires, estimating gold per turn required etc.
Then you know how much gold you have to save up, and if you perhaps can just store up alot of gold and wait for academy...? Or would that fill the treasure too much, delaying optics and reaching optics with gold in hand.

Good job spamming warriors and securing your island, thats a moderate and safe approach!
 

BornInCantaloup

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Spoiler :
Problem with Optics beeline is all the tech on the way (MC, Machinery, ...) do nothing do they?
Agreed. Beeline leaves you too weak.

I might be done with this map
So, I lied. I actually have a couple of questions for the experts.
Spoiler :
There are a few things that are tied to the tech path that interest me.
First, let's assume that Player has a religion (because I do ; I'll consider my T62 save above to be a hard save).

Hmmm...
So, Monarchy is an instant +2 happies. This is really good and speeds up research to everything else.
^ This is what we're weighting against. The base line.

Litterature before Monarchy means something like 10T earlier Great Library.
^ So, those are the options.

Now, I want to ask about other detours.
If we have a religion, and are going to build wonders and libraries and monuments and maybe even temples,
How ludicrous is it to research Monotheism ?

Also, if we have high food/low hammer cities (which we do),
Are there items that we can profitably whip for overflow ?
Yes, Missionaries, I'm looking at you.

Final question, how does Meditation and Monasteries and the Philosophy bulb fit in if
We have religion, intend to rush the Great Library, run Caste System and possibly start a golden age ?

At what point is a detour too much of a detour ?
I'll try to explore a little bit of that but I would welcome some feedback from more experienced Iso players.
 

sylvanllewelyn

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Nice looking start but with lots of discussion so I was worried that there was "something" about this map. Turns out

Deity, no huts, no events, T131 (400AD)
Spoiler :

Rich isolation maps magnify differences in skill level like none other. Amazing what others managed to do.

T62 (1520BC) Oracle for Monarchy. In hindsight I could have taken something better but I didn't know that. Given the information I had, there was a wonder-building monster out there. I believe that taking the Oracle for... anything... is good because it slows down the overall tech pace. Metal casting doesn't do anything because there was no gold, silver, or gems.

Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG



Uninspiring beeline to optics at T125 (250AD). I did not suffer from production trap this time because there wasn't much production and I struggled with health.

Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG



Met some backwards-AIs and traded my way to astronomy by T131 (AD400). Judging from the demographics, the big fish is out there somewhere.

Civ4ScreenShot0004.JPG



My next steps would be currency, code of laws, civil service. I will finish whipping out essential infrastructure and then switch to caste + bureaucracy. Then... who knows.

 

soundjata

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Agreed. Beeline leaves you too weak.


So, I lied. I actually have a couple of questions for the AIs disguised as humans lying around.
Spoiler :



And then, Build some religious stuff.

Spoiler :
There are some interesting scenarios involving having a religion (and Pacifism is good).
Sometimes you can go nuts with AP / Sankore / Minaret but I think our island is too small for that :think:

Failgold is good to avoid what @krikav described (stop research for a period) but should be balanced with a couple of things.
- continuous increase in raw commerce (we are commited to a cottage economy aren't we :D)
- preparation of great people for whatever decisive slingshot we'll do
Because Astro =/= victory screen :yeah:


Other possibilities
Spoiler :
I am surprised nobody mentioned a Calendar beeline.
-Math has excellent value right now (after writing)
-Sailing is good for our 2 last cities
-Calendar justifies city 6 in silk paradise, maybe can even pay for an early city 7 :think:

Also MoM
 
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BornInCantaloup

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Spoiler :
Spoiler :


Turn 75 :
Spoiler :
Let's act like we're reasonable people and not multiply the turns we spend in Anarchy :
Spoiler :


Doubley switch and we can start building Granaries in Washington/New-York.
There is no such junk as infrastructure in those cities (yet).


T74 overview :
Spoiler :


I got Bronze while my settler was in transit to Horse city, so I set up Atlanta to the North, since that location is easier to develop. It also means I can now fogbust the whole coastline against barb galleys.
Working some coast, grassland riverside and lakes to help with the cause.
Religion spread to Boston, which is nice.
Washington has spent its time building workers and I now have 6. New-York grew to happy cap and resumed settler duty. Boston and Philadelphia have their granaries already.

I haven't solved the Aesthetics vs Monarchy dilemma, yet, but I think this is an acceptable first step.
Monotheism comes with 2 techs for discount (Poly/Masonry) and "Speeds up Monarchy" and will be a nice help to build Libraries/Wonders. Also a help to spread Confusionism.
All in all, I guess it's close to being a free tech.

Actually, now it makes perfect sense to go Monarchy first.
edit : scrap it, Soundjata is right. I'm late on :gp: as it is and Monarchy reads more like : "Delays :gp:", which also delays my Philo bulb, and my Caste switch, etc. I can do some whipping to control my pop.
On the other hand, Monotheism reads fine as "Speeds up The Great Library, eases up Libraries". Monarchy is like a 10 turns detour at this point. Not wise.
Decisions, decisions... are not easy to make when all paths seem valid.


Other possibilities
Thank you for your answer, it helped me get a clearer sense..
Spoiler :
So, Calendar, you say.
On MoM : it would be great to have but can it really be a better target than the Great Library ? I'm not sure it can compete, since it doesn't really do anything by itself.
It needs some other things, like the Great Library, or Caste System, or Pacifism.

The silk tiles, we have 6 (1 to be settled on). 4 are easy to work and would bring about 20 commerce. I would think the wonder is the main draw to Calendar but I didn't realize the silks could bring in that much.

It might be closer than I thought. You're absolutely right that Sailing and Maths are both useful techs to have and they're also pre-requisites. It's a very :science: hungry path, however and a single :happy: is gained in the process.
I don't know. You make it clear there are options.
 
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soundjata

Be like water
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Update T93
Spoiler :
After writing we store gold in anticipation of libraries.
Then we 100% through Sailing > Math > Calendar and get prepared for the start of Chicago
Spoiler :


A first GS has arrived in Washington from Philadelphia
Spoiler :


We could go for an Academy but I'd rather bulb Astronomy sooner.


Chicago + Math + 3 workers = triple chop library > plantation.

City 7 (pig+fish) could be started soonish. There is a half built settler in New York.
Spoiler :

 

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CarpoolKaraoke

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Agreed. Beeline leaves you too weak.


So, I lied. I actually have a couple of questions for the experts.
Spoiler :
There are a few things that are tied to the tech path that interest me.
First, let's assume that Player has a religion (because I do ; I'll consider my T62 save above to be a hard save).

Hmmm...
So, Monarchy is an instant +2 happies. This is really good and speeds up research to everything else.
^ This is what we're weighting against. The base line.

Litterature before Monarchy means something like 10T earlier Great Library.
^ So, those are the options.

Now, I want to ask about other detours.
If we have a religion, and are going to build wonders and libraries and monuments and maybe even temples,
How ludicrous is it to research Monotheism ?

Also, if we have high food/low hammer cities (which we do),
Are there items that we can profitably whip for overflow ?
Yes, Missionaries, I'm looking at you.

Final question, how does Meditation and Monasteries and the Philosophy bulb fit in if
We have religion, intend to rush the Great Library, run Caste System and possibly start a golden age ?

At what point is a detour too much of a detour ?
I'll try to explore a little bit of that but I would welcome some feedback from more experienced Iso players.


Spoiler :


I think Monarchy is a naturally strong candidate before Literature because of Marble + charismatic. Too much value in Temple of Artemis + Oracle failgold after Mysticism.

Monotheism + Missionaries are nice for failgold for sure. Spiritual leaders would make this 100% worth it.

Meditation usually sucks because it + Philosophy interferes with acquiring COL+ Civil Service progress between Optics and Astro bulbs. I suppose if you had a map with dye and other calendar resources, there is an avenue to pick Calendar/Drama over Monarchy, and then take Meditation and bulb Philosophy without delaying Optics too much. With marble, Monarchy + Literature mean diminishing returns on Philosophy.



 

krikav

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Regarding iso (deity) and "detours".
Spoiler :


The wisdom I have tried to gather from others and from own experience tells me that it's quite rare that you can go for a straight optics beeline (after writing).

Possible detours are:
Math->calendar: Rare... LHC84 Hammurabi is the only calendar map I can think of.
There was a low sea level map where I went math+alphabet before the optics beeline due to multiple good spots and a truckload of forests to chop after a very tricky barb early game, mass chopping and building research was the only path forward I think.

Aestethics->litterature: Production... marble/ind or if you also have landed pyramids. Getting a lvl4 unit from barbs ealy on is synnergistic due to heroic failgolding. Gold/Ivory might be synnergistic too due to Paya/SoZ.

Monarchy: SUPER common option. The added happycap, especially for the capital is quite common.
Ivory/gold/silver/gems/fur/CHA are all antagonistic to this detour, wine is obviously synnergistic.
This detour is the goto option in over 50% of all iso games from my experience.

Alphabet: If you have alot of good production tiles, horses/copper/iron etc etc. Well worth it to tech alpha and build your way to optics afterwards.

CoL: If you have alot of food and can't really make use of it otherwie. Helps a ton if you are exp/org or both since you are less dependant on slavery for granaries/lighthouses.

Currency: If you have two offshore islands that are of good quality.

And I would say that in general, you can only pick one.
Sometimes situations might arise where you can go for multiple ones ofcourse, but the situation that needs to be avoided at all cost is that you reach optics and make contact and can do no trades at all.
In that case you need to continue to self-tech calendar, bulb astro and then trade away astro rather soon.
Can be game over, or at least land you in a horrid long term slog for a possible late game victory.

This map is a atypical example in that the AIs are almost just as isolated as we are.
They are all in semi-iso, so they are not trading with each other at all, and multiple of them are in fact likely to but heads.
Also, it's high sea level, which makes the odds for a runaway AI very small.
And apart from that, we have a really juicy island to play with...

So this map you can pretty much do whatever you want and enjoy.
Capital spot is so good, so it might even be optimal to just go self-tech CS for earily burocracy and maybe lib astro.

 

drewisfat

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That's a great post Krikav. Only thing I'd add is that a big benefit of CoL is Confucianism. You offset some of the happiness issues from not picking monarchy, and hogging religions lowers the chance of an AI grabbing a 17th century culture victory, which is a big way I lose isolated games. Synergy with SPI for caste/slavery swaps and cheaper temples.
 
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BornInCantaloup

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^^^
Thanks, all of you, for the very informative replies and the time spent.
Spoiler :
I understand you all value failgold very highly.
I also understand that it is a stake to get Optics early enough to get relevant trades without burning the most expensive techs.
Hence : you just need as much happiness as necessary, or something like that.
Experience will be a big help with that latter point. Assessing timelines... ugh.

Yes, this map is very rich and forgiving.
I also think that Chicago is a very smart settlement in Krikav's second run. Sharing the double food to get twice the happy cap.
 

konata_LS

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@BornInCantaloup
Spoiler :

Very strong opening :goodjob: CoL and Caste have synergy with several high :food: spots.

So, I lied. I actually have a couple of questions for the experts.
It seems you excel at locating the important points and launching valuable discussions. Your posts are very inspiring :thumbsup:

Final question, how does Meditation and Monasteries and the Philosophy bulb fit in if
We have religion, intend to rush the Great Library, run Caste System and possibly start a golden age ?
Founding Confu is usually safe if we oracle CoL (like this map). But Philo and Taoism is much riskier than Confu, because:
- bulbing philo requires not only Medication, but also Alphabet and Maths
- Philo and pacifism may work well in this map (we found a religion + nice land + no run away AI), but not always in other maps. Sometimes a crazy AI gets super early Taoism while the isolated player has no religion at all. An Immortal AI got 1480BC Taoism . Similar things also happened to me: Monarch AI Willem got 800BC Taoism .

About my game: yes, the failgold is tempting, but it's also a trap. Good players will use skillfully failgold to maintain 100% :science:, while noobs often forget about backfilling the land or build enough workers. Your suggestion is right: I wanted to save the two forests for capital observatory, but chopping them into MoM looks a better choice now. :lol:


@krikav
Spoiler :

50AD Optics is awesome :woohoo:
Comparing your screenshots and my game makes me realize many parts than I can improve in my gameplay. Thanks for sharing your thought!

IMHO, for this map, CoL is a conservative choice on Deity, much safer than Aesthetics - GLib. The capital is nice, but there is no early high :commerce: tiles (gold, gem, fur). Plus, Washington is not FIN, which means the player wouldn't get a super early Literature nor discount :hammers: on wonders. So, the risk of Aesthetics is: by the time the player gets Literature and start chopping GLib, it's possible to lose it to a Deity AI. And what if an AI gets GEngineer from Mids and rush GLib? Such things might happen. Another downside of Aesthetics on Deity isolation is it's impossible to trade Aesthetics for techs like IW or Monarchy, as people usually do in Pangaea maps.
By contrast, Caste is a nice alternative of GLib; these high :food: spots are enough to generate 3 or 4 Scientists.
But if people choose CoL detour, avoiding Meditation before Astro bulb becomes mandatory.

I went for GLib because I played this map on Emperor :blush:. Getting GLib before 1AD is fine - I haven't seen Emperor AIs getting GLib before 300AD. So I knew an early Aesthetics would certainly give me GLib.

Very nice summary about the detours in isolation :goodjob:


@sylvanllewelyn
Spoiler :

400AD Astro is cool :goodjob:

Very good point about the strategic importance of oracle. It denies a free tech from unknown AIs.

Your gameplay reminds me of that Sury isolation map. You oracles Maths - an unusual approach but it worked well :D.


@soundjata
Spoiler :

The consensus among the players is skipping archery and fog-busting with warriors :lol:

The detour to Calendar is definitely worth trying! It's always with much pleasure to see & discuss different options :clap:
 

krikav

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Since monarchy is so common, standard practice is to go myst->poly->prist->monarchy.
Poly even though it's more expensive than meditation since that enables you to get CoL prior to astro-bulb w/o messing things up.

Bulbing philo isn't that common at least for me, after academy->2x bulb into astro and with forreign traderoutes, a fourth GSci comes too late meaningfully bulb philo which can be self-teched somewhat easy.
Fourth GSci is probably better utilized to start a GA. I did this here:


Spoiler T141 :

After optics, cities where allowed to grow. Except boston which where slugging along for the fourth GPerson.
I remained in caste for this, but as soon as I got my hands on CS (self-teched after trading for feud for the discount IIRC) I revolted to bur+OR.
Think I only build a single missionary, the one I got for free was used for SanFrancisco. The multiple turns and close proximity to the holy city means autospread usually does a good job.

GA now and into pacifism (still in bur+caste) which will starve down cities and likely result in 3-5 GPersons and stocking up points in a few more cities.
Toward the end of the GA I'll go into slavery+OR and finish forges.
Harbours and barracks will be whipped at <5 hammers invested for good overflow. Either keeping them in queue and releasing when outside of OR, or release the hammers and perhaps failgold Taj abit?
Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG



The AIs are hurting from lack of trading partners, and everyone wants to buy my yummy maps.
Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG



 

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Fish Man

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Maybe more detailed explanation later, but -

Spoiler :

t220 (1550AD) deity domination :)
 

BornInCantaloup

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Thanks for the extra input.
Spoiler :
bulbing philo requires not only Medication, but also Alphabet and Maths
Derp. I forgot about that. Thank you for the kind reminder. It seems that bulbing Optics also requires Alphabet and Maths.
I don't mind Maths but Maths + Alpha is a tall order, provided I also want CoL, Aesth, Monarchy. This is my lulzplan#noob. Can't have it all, got it.

Sideline : If you think my t62 Oracle with Writing and 4 cities was good looking (because I do, too), I spent something like 4 hours refining it. So, there's that. It's the reason why I always remain stuck in the BCs.
Since monarchy is so common, standard practice is to go myst->poly->prist->monarchy.
Poly even though it's more expensive than meditation since that enables you to get CoL prior to astro-bulb w/o messing things up.

Bulbing philo isn't that common
Yeah, I'm starting to see that, now. Suddenly, and I'm not so happy with my tech path anymore.
It seems it leads me exactly here :
the situation that needs to be avoided at all cost is that you reach optics and make contact and can do no trades at all

I think Monarchy is a naturally strong candidate before Literature because of Marble + charismatic. Too much value in Temple of Artemis + Oracle failgold after Mysticism.
Monarchy is certainly the tech that leads to the most organic development and it is a very good Oracle target, here, I agree. Oracle CoL seems more like a long-term investment with little to bring short term.
I don't have a grasp on the timings, yet, (research times for MC/Compass, Machinery/Optics) but I would think that the earlier one starts working on :gp:, the better. I guess I'll just have to play on and find out.
Oracle -> Aesthetics gives the earliest Great Library. I kinda wonder about that, now, it can be a very good line with trades on.
Still, it's hard to argue about the instant +2 happies from Monarchy and more as needed, especially given our growth potential.

With Bronze Working, I can see some failgold from the ToA. Getting failgold from the Oracle is trickier, because it isn't a wonder that can be delayed. I can see a 1 or 2 turns window to do that.
Without Bronze, I certainly didn't get any failgold from those wonders.
 

TaPele

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@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :
Noob here, are those hammer-less cities (like New York) worth? I tend to avoid "something"-less locations as well as tundra or dessert with fish, for instance.
 
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soundjata

Be like water
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Jun 3, 2011
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Slight improvement of our previous run : T65
Spoiler :
Got a bit less crazy on barb paranoia but still emphasized on securing the island early.
Changed the order of cities : New York prioritized for production (Academy will come from here!)
Writing one turn earlier, 2 more workers, 2 more cottages, 1 extra fishboat.
Tech choice is open :D



Props to @Fish Man for the
Spoiler :
"Monument first in city #2 to grab a fish" infamous strategy :thumbsup:
 
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