Nobles' Club 339: Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire


May 21, 2018
The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Charlemagne of the Holy Roman Empire, whom we last played in NC 304. The Holy Romans start with Hunting and Mysticism.
  • Traits: Charlemagne is Imperialistic and Protective. Imperialistic adds +100% to Great General generation and +50%:hammers: bonus to Settler production (note that the settler bonus doesn't apply to excess :food: directly converted to :hammers:. Protective gives all Archery and Gunpowder units a free City Garrison I (+20% City Defence) and Drill I (+1 First Strike chance) promotion, as well as a +100%:hammers: bonus to Walls and Castles.
  • The UB: Rathaus, a Courthouse with -75% city maintenance instead of -50%. Only really useful lategame if you're heavily using Corporations, since without ORG Courthouses are simply too expensive to justify building early if you don't have to. And if you have to in order to unlock Forbidden Palace for a colony the extra reduction won't be noticed so much anyway.
  • The UU: The Landsknecht, a Pikeman with +100% vs. Melee units in addition to Mounted. Fantastic stack defenders that will leave the AI scratching their collective heads for a viable counter (hint: it's Crossbows), although their base 6:strength: makes them fairly weak against units they don't get a massive bonus against. That's nothing a bit of Siege can't solve, though, and Engineering does happen to unlock Trebuchets as well...:devil:
And the start:

Spoiler map details :
Global Highlands, Temperate Climate, Medium sealevel. The map size is set to Small with six AIs on the board, as Global Highlands map generate much larger maps in general.
Spoiler edits :
A strategic resource swap, as per usual.
Spoiler isolated? :
Not isolated.
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 339 Charlemagne Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.
Spoiler what is demigod :
The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.
Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :
You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.


  • NC 339
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This seems like a situation where the question of where to move the settler, if anywhere, is replaced with the question of what to do after settling. No Agriculture/Wheel/Mining to start, so a worker has literally nothing to do bar more techs (and not much to do without two, Mining -> Bronze Working), and a fishing boat isn't an option until Fishing comes in. Is this one of those weird situations where you go IMP settler first? The river over to the east does look a bit tempting, since settling east of that river on the coast is an instant connection to the capital (once the capital's borders have popped, but spoiler: Even IMP can't get a settler out in two turns ;)), and if nothing else there is at least a shareable Clam for food. Or maybe there's something west/down south in the darkness that's worth sending an early settler to. The Scout is in a much better position to check, although even an IMP settler at size one is going to give the scout ample time to scoot over and swing around to check the situation in the east.

So that's my scatterbrained interpretation of the start. Any expert want to weigh in with their brilliant(-er :mischief:) designs and strategies :)?
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Spoiler Something quirky and probably not optimal :

Move 1S - Argi - mining - BW

It is also conceivable to open with worker > settler (mining > bronze)

A least the worker should not be lazy too much (he might explore a bit left and right....)
Spoiler Played to Turn 20 on Immortal (No Huts/Events) :

Decided to gamble a bit and move settler 2NE to settle on PH. I figure the river will be nice and despite delaying settler by two turns, earlier worker is still good. At first it doesn't seem to gain me much as far as food and river tiles go...but I do gain 4 mineable hills including one PH, which, not only gives our worker plenty to do now, it also gives us another major perk-with IMP, those hill mines will be very useful to pump out settlers (since IMP bonus applies only to hammers not food):

Land looks pretty nice so far. Decided to go AGRI>Mining>Fishing. The extra commerce will help greatly and I can get to BW quickly too. Speaking of which...

After fishing, it's a choice between BW or TW>Pottery. I definitely want to do pottery but can't justify teching it for just one river cottage, so what I tech next will largely depend on what the scout finds east of capital down the fiver. I'm defintiely interested in what's in there. Meanwhile, worker will mine 2-3 of the hills, build a couple warriors (and WB once Fishing arrives) while growing to size 3 (maybe 4 depending on timing), then start pumping out settlers.
Spoiler Settler first - t36 :

Looks like classic settler first to me, so I played til turn 36, the end of the obvious moves. Scout runs right at start to prevent barbs from interfering with Prague's foundation. Capital then builds the WBs after the settler since it has access to 3h tile, while Prague builds the worker. 2 cities, 1 worker, all big 3 food yields in and barb safety in time and perfect timing on BW.

Spoiler Settler first - t36 :

Looks like classic settler first to me, so I played til turn 36, the end of the obvious moves. Scout runs right at start to prevent barbs from interfering with Prague's foundation. Capital then builds the WBs after the settler since it has access to 3h tile, while Prague builds the worker. 2 cities, 1 worker, all big 3 food yields in and barb safety in time and perfect timing on BW.

View attachment 674805

You say the obvious moves - but can you explain the settle 1W please?
That and wanting Prague to have an extra base hammer. The dream settler first start is:
- Worker would idle heavily
- IMP & tiles that let you get the IMP bonus
- First city 3 tiles away
- First city instant trade route
- First city extra yield
Could have also swapped capital/Prague locations around for a slightly better long-term capital but a slightly slower opening.
By obvious moves I just meant what I had seen at t0.
Hi. I am returning to Civ4 after almost a year. My last victory in Civ4 was in October 2022, in Nobles' Club 287 (Mao Zedong), and was also my only win at Emperor difficulty. I am dropping down to Monarch.

I want to chop forests, so my first build is a Worker. I research Mining, Bronze Working, Fishing.

Spoiler Unholy and Romanless, Monarch 775 BC T84 :

4000 BC T0. Difficulty is Monarch. Move my Scout southeast, see wet rice, settle in place Schale, build a Worker, then Warrior, Settler, Work Boat, Work Boat, Warrior, Warrior, Warrior, Worker, Warrior, Granary, Settler. Tech path is Mining, Bronze Working, Fishing, Agriculture, The Wheel, Pottery, Iron Working, Animal Husbandry, Writing, Sailing. The first Worker will mine the hill west of Schale, then skip 3 turns, then chop forests.


3200 BC T20. Schale reaches size 2 and begins the Settler. The city tile has 2 food 2 hammer 1 commerce. The city governor wants to take 2 grassland forest hills (each 1 food 2 hammer) for Settler in 11 turns, but I instead take the corn (3 food) and the plain hill mine (4 hammer), which yields more 1 food, Settler in 10 turns.

2920 BC T27. Finish the Settler and revolt to adopt Slavery. I don't whip my slaves until 1840 BC T54, when I rush a Granary in my 2nd city. I might have whipped the Granary earlier, but forgot the best time to whip.

2800 BC T30. Settle my 2nd city Schüssel 5 south 1 west of my capital, next to rice and ivory. It is 7 north of Hammurabi's capital. Build a Monument, then Granary, Warrior, Warrior, Worker. A lake waters the city and the rice.

2600 BC T35. Learn Agriculture; my only Worker begins the rice farm. After the farm, it will build an ivory camp, then a road. (The ivory is under jungle, but you can camp jungle.) A 2nd Worker from Schale will do the corn farm.

I suspect that Hammurabi has the only other civ on my continent, but I am wrong. I meet Saladin in 2800 BC T53, Hannibal in 1840 BC T54, Boudica in 900 BC T79, and both Mao Zedong and Frederick in 850 BC T81. This continent is a pangaea with all 7 civs.

1680 BC T58. My capital Schale begins a Settler for my 3rd city. The capital has size 6, the max after my road brought ivory. I want to settle eastward, but fear barbarians, so my next Settler will go west. The other civs will defeat the barbs, then I will go east.

1480 BC T63. Settle Milch 4 west 1 north of Schale, near a cow. I am 5 turns away from Animal Husbandry, which is just enough for my nearest Worker to chop 1 forest and road the cow. I need Animal Husbandry for the cow pasture.

1240 BC T69. Settle Gipfel 4 east 3 south of Schale, near a pig under jungle. I got Iron Working to chop the jungle; a Worker began to chop it before it was in my borders.

825 BC T82. Settle Schere 7 east 2 north of Schale. It needs a Monument to reach crab and copper.

775 BC T84. Begin foreign trade. I completed a road to Hammurabi last turn, and get Sailing this turn. My map has sailing routes along the northern coast from my capital east to Boudica, and along the southern coast from Hammurabi east to Hannibal. I have Open Borders with these 3 civs.


The other German leader says, "Germany the great and its superior people meet you. I Frederick, desire peace with all my neighbors - even with your puny culture." I want to rank my German Holy Roman Empire over his Germany; but in truth, my cities have no religion, and aren't named Rome, so we're the Unholy Romanless State.


I have a Scout, 5 Workers, and 7 Warriors; I lost 2 more Warriors to lucky barbs. I connected a gem mine to grow my capital to size 7. I have not connected my iron mine, so I can build more Warriors, but I can't defend my civ against Axemen. I rank 1st in food and production but 6th in commerce; my civ has no cottages.

I have ivory and might attack Hammurabi with Elephants and Catapults. For this, I would add commerce to my civ and research Mathematics, Horseback Riding, Construction. I might also want Archery. Hammurabi's Bowmen get a bonus versus melee units; but Elephants, Catapults, Archers aren't melee.
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