Nobles' Club 368: Suryavarman II of the Khmer

[0urBall]

Do you have...

Spoiler :

... something like 3 workers ?
Good job on expanding to claim city spots and control most of the land (+ focusing on gpp for Astronomy reasons) but
You need many more workers to keep up with your cities growth and work improved tiles.

Sylvanllewelyn has at least 5 workers at this point (for comparison) and I do think this is still on the low side.

Harihara is a very good early grab with reduced maintenance but Angkor Thom probably did not live up to expectations due to low food and barren land.
I understand the wish for Chariots to secure yourself but, being creative, you can cover a ton of the island just with city culture and be safe from barbs

gl with the rest of your game.

Spoiler :

4 workers, but yeah your probably right. I may have sacrificed more workers for an early Mids as HR/Rep was the only real way I could think of to keep up with and the cities grew
I'm currently in the middle of keeping GK's Grenadiers at bay with my Knights/Maces, but I need to get a navy together as he's ruining my coastline resources/city defences
Then we'll see if we can keep up with the other landmass, as it looks like the near constant conflict is slowing them down. Or at least preventing one of them from building a huge lead

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@chinemol

Immortal, T227, 1595AD.

Spoiler :

The basic problem in my game was that Persia took out the Koreans and the Dutch peace-vassaled to the Persians, both very early. Attacking them was not an option. By the time I got steel in 1320AD, everyone had rifling.

I attacked the Vikings and the Aztecs decided to join. I knocked the Vikings out of their land and paid 200 gold to the Aztecs so they'll leave me alone. The Vikings survived on that island being vassals to the Aztecs.

I did get first to communism on 1560AD, nobody even tried. I promptly used the great engineer to build the Kremlin. I actually wanted a great merchant.

Getting a foothold was important because now I can use espionage to catch up in tech. They're pulling ahead but it's still under control. If they get into a war again then I can join. I am counting on Genghis Khan and Montezuma to get into a war.

Henrik's explanation of settling decision is excellent.

Spoiler :

if you play it blindly, moving left with settler is a huge risk of ruining fish. So it's up down or in place. Going to the right to lose most flood plains seems very questionable, you already have great production being expansive and creative so i would opt to keep the river.
1 south wastes a turn and kills a forest i cant justify that. Nothing is gained except keeping a single flood plain. SiP seems fine to me.

Edit: game ended 1896AD

Spoiler :

What a grind. The Persians never researched tanks. Otherwise we're going nuclear.

 

[Build2Much]

I did play this again and went with domination/conquest strategy instead. Won again on a very similar end date but the AI leader was very different the second time around. Very enjoyable map, thanks again!

 

[skarpa]

My attempt for anyone not sick of my games - Monarch, Normal Speed, Huts

T125ish

I read the initial discussion about where to settle but haven't opened any spoilers except for @sampsa on T50 and then T100 both after I'd passed it.

Spoiler :

Maybe I shouldn't be pleased with this because my REX wasn't very rapid at all except maybe geographically, I reloaded and played on several times from various turns as I'd forgotten some stuff - like Medit kills my chance of bulbing Astro, that I'd want GLH in a coastal city etc or to change civics when I needed to

T1 I moved my scout onto the grasslands hill to the west to get a view. I saw the rice to the south, the coast west and a hut to the north. I decided I'd settle the PH unless mr scout saw any fishes next turn. I knew I'd lose fresh water and possibly easy trade routes but EXP gives health and I could now see the river was short.

Turn 2 the scout checked for fish and grabbed the hut. I got a scout - not so good on monarch where both can die real quick. There were no fishes so I settled on the PH and started a worker I think. Researched Agri - I wanted pottery and cottages on the FPs asap rather than farming the rice but farms on the floods would be OK until I could cottage them.

Scouts split up and explored. It soon beame apparent I was alone on a not very big island.They grabbed two goodie huts and I lucked out with new tech masonry. After agri I teched Wh Pot and BW. Another lucky hut got me Arch. I decided to be expansive with my 2nd city and grab the sheep, marble and rabbits 10 tiles to the east. This was probably a bad move but I had a bee in my bonnet about building the Oracle and marble would be handy. The furs would give early happiness - the island looked very short on that, the sheep, well the sheep could be eaten. I'd farmed and cottaged enough around my capital and I had 2 workers by then who could knock me up a road in 10 turns to connect with my cap and then dev the res around Hari. An archer had gone ahead a wee bit. One benefit of settling far out was that every CRE border pop would FB the max land and hopefully reduce the amount of scouts, archers and warriors for FBing.

My 2 scouts actually did sterling work, killing at least 4 bears (out of 6) a lion and a couple of wolves. I eventually lost one to a barb warrior. Otherwise the FB went well and I've had little trouble. I lost 2 archers to an axemen who got lucky once and then even luckier. I killed an archer. With my border pops I got everything except 1 sea tile FBed pretty early on with just 4 archers and a scout and now I can see everything except a that sea tile too. Will get eyes on that soon. There's only 1 barb galley out the ATM.

I researched AH for the sheep and then writing for a lib and to get CS from the oracle Asap. I teched to PH then maths and CoL. It took a while but with so liltte news from abroad (SH late, GW late no ToA) it looked do-able in Hari with Mids and GLH to follow. CoL came in 675BC and Oracle next turn and I took CS (which I promptly forgot to rev into BUR because I think Yasod was making a settler - I was too slow building these. I started mids in Hari but by 575 I remembered that chops would be better in Yasod bc of BUR and switched it to there.

Settler founded Thom 575BC - a weak city for food but I wanted Stone online asap and I could always spread some irr that way to farm. Plus there was chop for the GLH.

I'd forgotten I needed fishing and sailing too (I was teching alpha on autopilot) and that Mono for ORG REL would be a boon too so teched those as rapidly as I could, fortunately I'd had the slider on 0 before and typically for me had left it there longer than I needed so I could tech 100% all the time. Hari's library gave me a GS in 400bc so I made an acad in Yasod. I had to lose a couple of turns to anarchy when Mono came along and then into Confu. Nicely the gods spread Confu to Thom too so it benefited as well.

GLH came in at 25BC - I'd tried twice before and missed it by a turn or 2 around 75AD and gone back to 575 to try again (lame I know but i really wanted to prove I could do it and besides it's so powerful on water map - not that I have any water cities to trade with! Mids complete next turn and this time I've remembered to rev to REP. OK it was the turn after but I remembered.

Getting Optics and then Astro are now my priorities as well as 6 to 8 new cities. The pigs were finally settled in AD225 and I'll chop MoM in Wat as soon as I have Cal which is a PR for Astro think. I will not build any settlers in my cap now even though I am tempted. I'm growing it asap and its building an adequct for now cos the health is horrible. I only have the rice online having forgotten to hook up the sheep and not pastured the piggies yet. I'll start settlers in Hari in 5 turns when its grown and has a gran online to take whipping better.

Thom is too food poor for a settler and is building a forge. Colossus would be great but it's prob better to build somewhere new for the chops. Wat is too small.

Anyway thanks for reading. I'm quite pleased with where I'm at. I've no idea who or where the AIs are but optics and caravelles are not too far off methinks. I hope still to bulb Astro. Still i'm aware I've probably been too distracted by teching and wonder whoring so right now I'm gonna replay from turn one and settle settle settle!

 

[skarpa]

This is an alternative go to the one above starting at 4000BC and settle, settle, settle! I want to see what the difference is.

Spoiler :

Same point of play as other game - 275AD turn 126?

BTW Cap is at happy cap so can't grow anyway!

Some small differences in huts etc - for example no masonry or archery discovered but I did get BW and about 40 gold. My single scout survived and was able to survey the whole island.


6 cities compared with 4 (only just!) last time
Pop 39 here - 16 last time
sustainable tech rate 60% 84 bkrs @-2gold v 90% 88bkrs @-3gold

To make up for the disparity in pop and cities I have a considerable lead in tech - Mono, IW, MC, Curr, and I'm about to tech Compass
As stated before I'd not prioritize wonders this time. I was beaten to the Oracle. I did chop Mids but didn't even attempt GLH

I this one I failed to found Confu but have it in the earlier game which is increasing my happy cap by 1, If I'm to have a religion pre-contact with the AI's I'll have to go for Philo asap - that's about 14 turns off and needs Med which may stop me bulbing Astro. Last game I used my first GS to build an academy. This game I got a GS 5 turns ago and am considering what to do with him. Bulb philo? Keep him for later? Build Acad as in other game? I am 2 boffins in Harib so another one is 30 turns off.

Of course not having a religion will avoid annoying any civs when I come into contact with them but in the meantime I can't benefit from OR with the nice 25% building bonus. It'd also be harder to pursue a culture victory without one. Plus I suspect all the AI's are isolated - they are certainly slow building wonders so maybe I'd be one converting them to my religion. Xnity has gone that only leaves Taoism and Islam for an isolated AI civ.

It took longer to FB the island and the barbs were worse and needed more units to beat but it's all secure now I think. Just one barb galley - same as the other game.

I've played the other game onto 800AD - no contact but I will be sending carvels out very soon. Before I do I'll play this one up to 800. Since civ is a snowball game the advantages and disadvantages should come more apparent the longer I play.

 

[skarpa]

@BornInCantaloup thanks for reading and giving me your thoughts. I suppose I'm really trying to find a balance between doing fun stuff like building wonders (well the useful ones anyway) and winning the game on harder levels which for me right now is monarch. I've replayed from turn one and are now up to t125 as on the others. I've tried to take as much on board as poss.

try 3.5 turn 125

Spoiler :

And yes, sorry I've wonderspammed all over again but with better results I think. I've just settled 4 cities. I had had most of these settled by 400bc in a game but my econ totally collapsed and I know it would have picked up but I just hate those doldrums - CS would be probably 500ad if I was lucky. It was so bad that fishing was 4 turns. I decided I needed to go back to 1200 and cottage more - specifically by settling Wat in 875 seemed the best option for cottage spam and I wasted turns bringing the settler over from where Raja is now - a better site generally perhaps thinking on it but I didn't think I could get as much commerce as quickly out of it. Looking back I know I could have had my wonders and got my cities out earlier. I actually enjoy this part of the game the most and I was looking for an isolation game to see how well I could tech without trades

To address specific points.

Yeah the cap site was OK for a city but had too poor prod for the capital. I'd noticed how unhealthiness was an issue too and realised the chops were rather limited. 2nd game I kept it partly because i think I used a save to start and partly cos I din't to change too many variables. This time I ignored the coast and went for the piggies. I would have got the rice even if I'd not known about it but I had noticed too how nice the general location was for building stuff in other tries. I also reasoned that maybe since the land was to the east I should settle that way anyway. Post hoc but I try to establish principles to help in future starts. In this case; "check for seafood but if there ain't any definitely settle away from the coast!"

I'd also noticed how I'd settled the marble too far east - I was initially wanting the fur to justify settling so far from my cap. This time nothing to justify though admittedly I still haven't got the bunnies.

Courthouses I tend to start if not finish when there is nothing else I want to build. Maintenance I find starts insignifcant and then suddenly rockets as cities are settled and populations grow. It's now 29 all of a sudden and I kinda wish I had a few already courts already. I've not built any yet so but couldn't until CoL anyway. Well out of reach when I oversettled.

I've actually found plenty of turns when growing cities there's been nothing to build except wonders. Units have been mostly unnecessary once the cap had pumped enough warriors to FB. It did them mostly while recovering from settler whips at happy cap. I only faced one barb warrior and no galley this time either. The Mids were basically slow built between settlers and workers. This brings me to the stone.

First try I struggled to get the stone connected when I wanted to start the mids - it wasn't a good site but the stone was in the frist ring. Second game not so much by starting earlier, I should have thought more about the location but did manage GLH there so not all bad. This time I settled 1 south, off the PH and able to share rice with cap.

I don't tend to use dotmaps. For some reason I've found 'em intrusive (thanks for the ctl X tip). I don't usually find that I can't settle where I want cos I've settled somewhere else.

This time I built Oracle in stone city - I timed it nicely with completing CoL. Both were late at 350bc but if the AI cannot build it by then it's fair game. Since I slow built it for timing (no need for it until maths and CoL) and I still could get my fishing and sailing teched I've chopped GLH there too. I'm building temple but that's only so I can speed up a Prophet if I want. I think a culture victory may be on the cards and getting gold for Holy building is good anyway.

I had settlers positioned around to settle most of the 4 new cities for many turns but I have held off for Curr. To give them a 1 pop boost and because my cap had loads of chops left (I'd pre-cut nearly every forest on the island by 1 AD) I decided i may as well build HG too. The extra GE points will go nicely with the GE points from the mids as would a forge (which reminds me I want MC - I never seem to have all the tech I want!). The +1 pop is why Yasod is unhappy - it was at its happy cap as advised. I also forgot to get the settler built ready for the bunnies - I meant to whip it in Wat but forgot. I'll settle it in 3 turns but didn't want to delay HG any longer - The AI might be builidng it.

Talking of the other civs I'm hearing of GGs being spawned so not all are completely isolated but at least they are fighting. I'm chopping MoM out in Hari. I'll make a couple more settlers but there's only clams and wine unclaimed. I'll get someone down for the horses and bunny in the SW soon too. Ivory needs to come online too. I did consider settling it after you mentioned it but the plains tile seemed slightly less valuable but it's prob marginal.

I've had the GS for a while now but will keep him until after alpha at least. I still want to try to bulb astro..

Oops forgot to actually post it - now I'm up to turn 150. All cities settled. Spawned a GE but too late to get Colossus. Will save for Taj I think. Wine about to come online, some cities at or close to happy cap. Pop 74. Economy still sucks but improving. About 8 turns to Mach but compass first. In another game I had reached optics by now but my pop was less than a third of this.

 

[skarpa]

Henrik POV, up to t80 / 875bc

Spoiler :

Fairly smooth opening settling 2nd city on stone and chopping exp workers and a settler out while building mids in cap.
Finished pyramids pretty safely at 1400bc and just about to settle my 5th city. Just did double swap into slavery and rep. Feeling p good about this one. second city ended up being super useful, 2 workers, a settler, a boat, horses and stone within 30 turns.
I love creative. Couldn't do this without it. I'll have my videos of this up in a couple weeks.
View attachment 710784

I'm looking forward to the video