Nobles' Club 368: Suryavarman II of the Khmer

@BornInCantaloup

If you don't mind, would you please explain your first turn?
Spoiler :

Scout and settler movement. I don't understand you settled there. I also don't understand why most players settled in place. Just for the oasis? Was my choice a mistake?


@0urBall (immortal, turn 166, 1060AD)
Spoiler :

Cantaloup is correct that I could have had more workers. I was struggling with population growth. It's hard to keep growing and expanding while also building the pyramids. I wasn't working unimproved tiles so I felt I had enough.

Henrik settled on stone because he was playing on deity difficulty. Desert stone needs 3 turns for the road and 8 turns for the querry, it wouldn't be up on time.

I attached my save file.


@soundjata
Spoiler :

You don't like whales? Are the islands worth settling beyond silver and whales?
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Attachments

Spoiler :
if you play it blindly, moving left with settler is a huge risk of ruining fish. So it's up down or in place. Going to the right to lose most flood plains seems very questionable, you already have great production being expansive and creative so i would opt to keep the river.
1 south wastes a turn and kills a forest i cant justify that. Nothing is gained except keeping a single flood plain. SiP seems fine to me.
 
@BornInCantaloup

If you don't mind, would you please explain your first turn?
Sure :)
Spoiler :
So, T0 we have coast 2N2W of the scout. I'm ruling out any location West of the settler for the capital.
They either lose the faster worker (forested plains hills), or the pigs (western ph) or can create dotmap problems down the line (too close to coast).

I dislike scouting south because we already start in the south.

Here, I'm always scouting NE, NE. That leaves the tiles 2S of the settler in the dark (if you scout south, you leave the tiles 2N in the dark, same issue).
With 4 floodplains, pigs and oasis in BFC we have the resources we can expect accounted for.
Moving the settler 2E1S retains one of those dark tiles. So, the chance of losing big on a corn or so (you never know) is reduced to just the one tile 2S1W of the starting settler.

At this point, you're choosing between river tiles vs a 2H city tile. This is really what it comes down to.
For reference :
Spoiler :

Civ4ScreenShot0173.JPG


I don't think burning a floodplains is a big deal.
I don't think SIP has very good production either, with just the single pigs. It needs to reach size 4 and work 2 mines to achieve decent production and has only 4 forests to chop.
What SIP has is the oasis and commerce tiles to develop commerce later on.

Going 2E1S gains some forests and like 6 unknown tiles that could be useful. Spoiler alert : they're not.

Considering how commerce starved I've been all of this game, I can very well accept that SIP is the better choice due to the long term potential.
However, a 2H city centre provides what a 2H city centre does : easier barb defence (warriors) and better settler production. This is supposed to be common doxa. Colour me surprised when nobody is talking about the plains hills page 1.

Yes, losing the rivers suck. The tiles are still there for other cities to work (turns out I'm only planning to claim the floodplains with city 7+).
However, they're just that : rivers, which makes the trade off a lot more acceptable. I would never move out of a food resource to settle the plains hills.

~~

Looking at what you did. I suppose Scout 1S, 1SW, Settler SW.
So you get a 15 turns worker... vs 13 turns for SIP and 10 turns for the plains hills (11, really, with settler move).
You keep the pigs, which is good and lose the oasis (without knowing) to claim the rice + save a floodplains.

So, the dry rice is not a good tile. A farmed floodplains is a better tile. A mine is ranging from equivalent (settlers) to better (workers) once you've grown a few sizes.
Given pigs and floodplains, you do not need to rely on the rice to grow.

Now, you do get a very nice Bureaucracy capital once it's reached size 15 and the river cottages are developped but you essentially did forego all the advantages that come from the faster early workers.
There certainly is a trade off between SIP and my capital's location, however, between SIP and SW, I believe SIP to be strictly superior. Starting city growth 2T earlier, improving pigs 2T earlier, getting your second city 2T earlier and the worker from that city 2T earlier... this all snowballs very fast. Which is why stronger hammer starts are usually favoured.

I will say, though, I do like the way you planted your 2nd city, grabbing a wide variety of 2nd ring resources (including the important stone). From there, I think maybe your 3rd should have been SW of the pigs. Those pigs are the best tile on the island and the way your 2nd city is settled makes them an easy grab.
Going for the sheep seems very far away for a 3rd and very inconvenient as far as worker turns are concerned.


Hope that helped :) Overall it's very interesting to me how everybody settled different on this island, not just the capital but every other city are being planted in different orders and locations.
 
Do you have...
Spoiler :
... something like 3 workers ?
Good job on expanding to claim city spots and control most of the land (+ focusing on gpp for Astronomy reasons) but
You need many more workers to keep up with your cities growth and work improved tiles.

Sylvanllewelyn has at least 5 workers at this point (for comparison) and I do think this is still on the low side.

Harihara is a very good early grab with reduced maintenance but Angkor Thom probably did not live up to expectations due to low food and barren land.
I understand the wish for Chariots to secure yourself but, being creative, you can cover a ton of the island just with city culture and be safe from barbs ;)

gl with the rest of your game.
Spoiler :

4 workers, but yeah your probably right. I may have sacrificed more workers for an early Mids as HR/Rep was the only real way I could think of to keep :c5happy: up with :health: and the cities grew
I'm currently in the middle of keeping GK's Grenadiers at bay with my Knights/Maces, but I need to get a navy together as he's ruining my coastline resources/city defences
Then we'll see if we can keep up with the other landmass, as it looks like the near constant conflict is slowing them down. Or at least preventing one of them from building a huge lead
 
@chinemol

Immortal, T227, 1595AD.
Spoiler :

The basic problem in my game was that Persia took out the Koreans and the Dutch peace-vassaled to the Persians, both very early. Attacking them was not an option. By the time I got steel in 1320AD, everyone had rifling.

I attacked the Vikings and the Aztecs decided to join. I knocked the Vikings out of their land and paid 200 gold to the Aztecs so they'll leave me alone. The Vikings survived on that island being vassals to the Aztecs.
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I did get first to communism on 1560AD, nobody even tried. I promptly used the great engineer to build the Kremlin. I actually wanted a great merchant.
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Getting a foothold was important because now I can use espionage to catch up in tech. They're pulling ahead but it's still under control. If they get into a war again then I can join. I am counting on Genghis Khan and Montezuma to get into a war.



Henrik's explanation of settling decision is excellent.

Spoiler :
if you play it blindly, moving left with settler is a huge risk of ruining fish. So it's up down or in place. Going to the right to lose most flood plains seems very questionable, you already have great production being expansive and creative so i would opt to keep the river.
1 south wastes a turn and kills a forest i cant justify that. Nothing is gained except keeping a single flood plain. SiP seems fine to me.

Edit: game ended 1896AD
Spoiler :

What a grind. The Persians never researched tanks. Otherwise we're going nuclear.
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I did play this again and went with domination/conquest strategy instead. Won again on a very similar end date but the AI leader was very different the second time around. Very enjoyable map, thanks again!
 
My attempt for anyone not sick of my games - Monarch, Normal Speed, Huts

T125ish

I read the initial discussion about where to settle but haven't opened any spoilers except for @sampsa on T50 and then T100 both after I'd passed it.
Spoiler :


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Maybe I shouldn't be pleased with this because my REX wasn't very rapid at all except maybe geographically, I reloaded and played on several times from various turns as I'd forgotten some stuff - like Medit kills my chance of bulbing Astro, that I'd want GLH in a coastal city etc or to change civics when I needed to

T1 I moved my scout onto the grasslands hill to the west to get a view. I saw the rice to the south, the coast west and a hut to the north. I decided I'd settle the PH unless mr scout saw any fishes next turn. I knew I'd lose fresh water and possibly easy trade routes but EXP gives health and I could now see the river was short.

Turn 2 the scout checked for fish and grabbed the hut. I got a scout - not so good on monarch where both can die real quick. There were no fishes so I settled on the PH and started a worker I think. Researched Agri - I wanted pottery and cottages on the FPs asap rather than farming the rice but farms on the floods would be OK until I could cottage them.

Scouts split up and explored. It soon beame apparent I was alone on a not very big island.They grabbed two goodie huts and I lucked out with new tech masonry. After agri I teched Wh Pot and BW. Another lucky hut got me Arch. I decided to be expansive with my 2nd city and grab the sheep, marble and rabbits 10 tiles to the east. This was probably a bad move but I had a bee in my bonnet about building the Oracle and marble would be handy. The furs would give early happiness - the island looked very short on that, the sheep, well the sheep could be eaten. I'd farmed and cottaged enough around my capital and I had 2 workers by then who could knock me up a road in 10 turns to connect with my cap and then dev the res around Hari. An archer had gone ahead a wee bit. One benefit of settling far out was that every CRE border pop would FB the max land and hopefully reduce the amount of scouts, archers and warriors for FBing.

My 2 scouts actually did sterling work, killing at least 4 bears (out of 6) a lion and a couple of wolves. I eventually lost one to a barb warrior. Otherwise the FB went well and I've had little trouble. I lost 2 archers to an axemen who got lucky once and then even luckier. I killed an archer. With my border pops I got everything except 1 sea tile FBed pretty early on with just 4 archers and a scout and now I can see everything except a that sea tile too. Will get eyes on that soon. There's only 1 barb galley out the ATM.

I researched AH for the sheep and then writing for a lib and to get CS from the oracle Asap. I teched to PH then maths and CoL. It took a while but with so liltte news from abroad (SH late, GW late no ToA) it looked do-able in Hari with Mids and GLH to follow. CoL came in 675BC and Oracle next turn and I took CS (which I promptly forgot to rev into BUR because I think Yasod was making a settler - I was too slow building these. I started mids in Hari but by 575 I remembered that chops would be better in Yasod bc of BUR and switched it to there.

Settler founded Thom 575BC - a weak city for food but I wanted Stone online asap and I could always spread some irr that way to farm. Plus there was chop for the GLH.

I'd forgotten I needed fishing and sailing too (I was teching alpha on autopilot) and that Mono for ORG REL would be a boon too so teched those as rapidly as I could, fortunately I'd had the slider on 0 before and typically for me had left it there longer than I needed so I could tech 100% all the time. Hari's library gave me a GS in 400bc so I made an acad in Yasod. I had to lose a couple of turns to anarchy when Mono came along and then into Confu. Nicely the gods spread Confu to Thom too so it benefited as well.

GLH came in at 25BC - I'd tried twice before and missed it by a turn or 2 around 75AD and gone back to 575 to try again (lame I know but i really wanted to prove I could do it and besides it's so powerful on water map - not that I have any water cities to trade with! Mids complete next turn and this time I've remembered to rev to REP. OK it was the turn after but I remembered.

Getting Optics and then Astro are now my priorities as well as 6 to 8 new cities. The pigs were finally settled in AD225 and I'll chop MoM in Wat as soon as I have Cal which is a PR for Astro think. I will not build any settlers in my cap now even though I am tempted. I'm growing it asap and its building an adequct for now cos the health is horrible. I only have the rice online having forgotten to hook up the sheep and not pastured the piggies yet. I'll start settlers in Hari in 5 turns when its grown and has a gran online to take whipping better.

Thom is too food poor for a settler and is building a forge. Colossus would be great but it's prob better to build somewhere new for the chops. Wat is too small.

Anyway thanks for reading. I'm quite pleased with where I'm at. I've no idea who or where the AIs are but optics and caravelles are not too far off methinks. I hope still to bulb Astro. Still i'm aware I've probably been too distracted by teching and wonder whoring so right now I'm gonna replay from turn one and settle settle settle!



 
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This is an alternative go to the one above starting at 4000BC and settle, settle, settle! I want to see what the difference is.


Spoiler :

Same point of play as other game - 275AD turn 126?

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BTW Cap is at happy cap so can't grow anyway!

Some small differences in huts etc - for example no masonry or archery discovered but I did get BW and about 40 gold. My single scout survived and was able to survey the whole island.


6 cities compared with 4 (only just!) last time
Pop 39 here - 16 last time
sustainable tech rate 60% 84 bkrs @-2gold v 90% 88bkrs @-3gold

To make up for the disparity in pop and cities I have a considerable lead in tech - Mono, IW, MC, Curr, and I'm about to tech Compass
As stated before I'd not prioritize wonders this time. I was beaten to the Oracle. I did chop Mids but didn't even attempt GLH

I this one I failed to found Confu but have it in the earlier game which is increasing my happy cap by 1, If I'm to have a religion pre-contact with the AI's I'll have to go for Philo asap - that's about 14 turns off and needs Med which may stop me bulbing Astro. Last game I used my first GS to build an academy. This game I got a GS 5 turns ago and am considering what to do with him. Bulb philo? Keep him for later? Build Acad as in other game? I am 2 boffins in Harib so another one is 30 turns off.

Of course not having a religion will avoid annoying any civs when I come into contact with them but in the meantime I can't benefit from OR with the nice 25% building bonus. It'd also be harder to pursue a culture victory without one. Plus I suspect all the AI's are isolated - they are certainly slow building wonders so maybe I'd be one converting them to my religion. Xnity has gone that only leaves Taoism and Islam for an isolated AI civ.

It took longer to FB the island and the barbs were worse and needed more units to beat but it's all secure now I think. Just one barb galley - same as the other game.

I've played the other game onto 800AD - no contact but I will be sending carvels out very soon. Before I do I'll play this one up to 800. Since civ is a snowball game the advantages and disadvantages should come more apparent the longer I play.

 
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i'm aware I've probably been too distracted by teching and wonder whoring so right now I'm gonna replay from turn one and settle settle settle!
This seems like a pretty good assessment to me.
Spoiler :
In comparing both of your saves, keep in mind a large chunk of the advantage from S1 comes from Oracle -> Civil Service. Not only is it an instant +1000 beakers but the Bureau bonus also carries hard.
Your land seems overall much better developped in S2. However, 4 important city spots remain to be filled in the East. Most of the island, if not all, should be settled at this point.


If I'm seeing right, Nagara is not working its Fish and Harihara is not working its rice in S2. Meanwhile, both cities are slow building Courthouses and working a couple of mines. This is probably wrong in a few ways.
- First, you should take a look at your cities maintenance. I doubt the courthouses are an important item at this point. Simply because you have access to courthouses doesn't mean you need them. It was a different thing in the last game when you had 19 cities.
- I understand you're working mines over food tiles to avoid growing into unhappiness and work as many cottages as possible. Remember you are running Representation. If you want to maximize your science, then growing to happy cap is a good idea but the final 2 pop points should be used by running scientists (and then your food is useful).
- However, the island is not settled in its entirety. It is not the time, yet, to go full science mode. It's possible you should still be working on multiple Great Scientists (looking at you, Nagara) but there is no reason to avoid growing into unhappies. Your cities can still function at happy cap -1 and do whip cycles every 10 turns or so to help with the expansion. Especially so since there is at least 1 unclaimed happy resource in the East.
- The point when you should go full science is when you are done building settlers (be it because the island is settled, or the locations that are left are not worth the maintenance and the tech delay)


People have very different ideas on how to approach this map and what settling pattern to use, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I think it's important to recognize early that your capital's production towards settlers is low. Yes, you claimed a plains hill but your best available tile is 4 yield only. As far as production goes, this is very subpar.
A direct consequence of this is that the main job of City 2 should be to have High Production towards Settlers. This means forests and high yield tiles, like the BFC pigs that you abandonned.
So, in S1 you went for a marble grab and in S2 for a cottage centre with City 2. I do firmly believe that Angkor Thom in S2 (so your 3rd in that save) is the best location to fulfill the purpose that should be assigned to City 2 : building settlers.
Quite importantly, that spot also serves as a spearhead towards in the East. If you building workers/settlers in this centralized position, they will be quickly in position. It also allows to expand your road network only 2 or 3 tiles at a time, so your workers can be more impactful.

Marble : Props for roading in advance but I can see you want to settle the same spot in S2 as you did in S1.
I think this is a situation where you should take a moment and use the ALT+X function to dotmap properly (CTRL+X to show/hide).
It would seem to me that the rabbits belong in crabs/horses/oasis city and marble/sheep should be riverside.
Remember, you're building Courthouses in the north for fear of maintenance. While I believe they are premature, Isolation is a scenario where you want to claim as much land as possible, using a few cities as possible. Maintenance and the cost of settlers is certainly to be taken seriously.

Stone : You went for it with City 3 in S1 and City 4 in S2. Both times in the same spot.
I kinda hate it. I also hate settling on the stone to save on worker turns, by the way. Settling a no-food city has a huge cost, especially in isolation (see above). It is also a relatively early city (even as 4th) that will not contribute to the Empire as much as other spots.
First and foremost : accessing the stone is only relevant if you have a city ready to start on the Pyramids. At this point, that city is not contributing settlers/workers anymore. The earlier this happens, the more proportion of your global production effectively disappears. I would consider sheep/marble and the 2nd pigs as must claims and be very hesistant to settle for the stone before those. So, I would only consider the stone for city 4 or 5, here.
I would also always claim the stone from the 2nd ring, so as to have food in my city. I chose to backfill and settle on the ivory (+ 2nd ring fish). Sylvallewelyn went for it with his 2nd city in a spearhead position with lots of 2nd ring grabs (+horses + rice), which I find quite smart.
Both of those locations are incompatible with some of the city sites you've used, and this is natural. They're also explained by different capital locations that come with different needs, problems and solutions.

I cannot vouch for the best settling pattern on this map (no 2 players did the same in order and locations) but it is a very fine example of
Why Dotmap Matters. Especially in isolation where you are not competing for space with AIs.

I won't touch the specifics of the tech path in Isolation but I suppose some things could be said. I'm also unsure how Monarch should affect it (Oracle -> CS and all).
My main point is that only a limited number of techs are truly needed to sustain the colonization. Once they are acquired, it is acceptable to take all the maintenance hits at once. Research can literally be stopped until all the cities that Player is willing to settle have been planted. At that point, the island is ready to be developped en masse and gear towards Astronomy.

Hope that helps, cheers :egypt:
 
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@BornInCantaloup thanks for reading and giving me your thoughts. I suppose I'm really trying to find a balance between doing fun stuff like building wonders (well the useful ones anyway) and winning the game on harder levels which for me right now is monarch. I've replayed from turn one and are now up to t125 as on the others. I've tried to take as much on board as poss.

try 3.5 turn 125
Spoiler :


Civ4ScreenShot0235.JPG


And yes, sorry I've wonderspammed all over again but with better results I think. I've just settled 4 cities. I had had most of these settled by 400bc in a game but my econ totally collapsed and I know it would have picked up but I just hate those doldrums - CS would be probably 500ad if I was lucky. It was so bad that fishing was 4 turns. I decided I needed to go back to 1200 and cottage more - specifically by settling Wat in 875 seemed the best option for cottage spam and I wasted turns bringing the settler over from where Raja is now - a better site generally perhaps thinking on it but I didn't think I could get as much commerce as quickly out of it. Looking back I know I could have had my wonders and got my cities out earlier. I actually enjoy this part of the game the most and I was looking for an isolation game to see how well I could tech without trades

To address specific points.

Yeah the cap site was OK for a city but had too poor prod for the capital. I'd noticed how unhealthiness was an issue too and realised the chops were rather limited. 2nd game I kept it partly because i think I used a save to start and partly cos I din't to change too many variables. This time I ignored the coast and went for the piggies. I would have got the rice even if I'd not known about it but I had noticed too how nice the general location was for building stuff in other tries. I also reasoned that maybe since the land was to the east I should settle that way anyway. Post hoc but I try to establish principles to help in future starts. In this case; "check for seafood but if there ain't any definitely settle away from the coast!"

I'd also noticed how I'd settled the marble too far east - I was initially wanting the fur to justify settling so far from my cap. This time nothing to justify though admittedly I still haven't got the bunnies.

Courthouses I tend to start if not finish when there is nothing else I want to build. Maintenance I find starts insignifcant and then suddenly rockets as cities are settled and populations grow. It's now 29 all of a sudden and I kinda wish I had a few already courts already. I've not built any yet so but couldn't until CoL anyway. Well out of reach when I oversettled.

I've actually found plenty of turns when growing cities there's been nothing to build except wonders. Units have been mostly unnecessary once the cap had pumped enough warriors to FB. It did them mostly while recovering from settler whips at happy cap. I only faced one barb warrior and no galley this time either. The Mids were basically slow built between settlers and workers. This brings me to the stone.

First try I struggled to get the stone connected when I wanted to start the mids - it wasn't a good site but the stone was in the frist ring. Second game not so much by starting earlier, I should have thought more about the location but did manage GLH there so not all bad. This time I settled 1 south, off the PH and able to share rice with cap.

I don't tend to use dotmaps. For some reason I've found 'em intrusive (thanks for the ctl X tip). I don't usually find that I can't settle where I want cos I've settled somewhere else.

This time I built Oracle in stone city - I timed it nicely with completing CoL. Both were late at 350bc but if the AI cannot build it by then it's fair game. Since I slow built it for timing (no need for it until maths and CoL) and I still could get my fishing and sailing teched I've chopped GLH there too. I'm building temple but that's only so I can speed up a Prophet if I want. I think a culture victory may be on the cards and getting gold for Holy building is good anyway.

I had settlers positioned around to settle most of the 4 new cities for many turns but I have held off for Curr. To give them a 1 pop boost and because my cap had loads of chops left (I'd pre-cut nearly every forest on the island by 1 AD) I decided i may as well build HG too. The extra GE points will go nicely with the GE points from the mids as would a forge (which reminds me I want MC - I never seem to have all the tech I want!). The +1 pop is why Yasod is unhappy - it was at its happy cap as advised. I also forgot to get the settler built ready for the bunnies - I meant to whip it in Wat but forgot. I'll settle it in 3 turns but didn't want to delay HG any longer - The AI might be builidng it.

Talking of the other civs I'm hearing of GGs being spawned so not all are completely isolated but at least they are fighting. I'm chopping MoM out in Hari. I'll make a couple more settlers but there's only clams and wine unclaimed. I'll get someone down for the horses and bunny in the SW soon too. Ivory needs to come online too. I did consider settling it after you mentioned it but the plains tile seemed slightly less valuable but it's prob marginal.

I've had the GS for a while now but will keep him until after alpha at least. I still want to try to bulb astro..

Oops forgot to actually post it - now I'm up to turn 150. All cities settled. Spawned a GE but too late to get Colossus. Will save for Taj I think. Wine about to come online, some cities at or close to happy cap. Pop 74. Economy still sucks but improving. About 8 turns to Mach but compass first. In another game I had reached optics by now but my pop was less than a third of this.

Civ4ScreenShot0237.JPG

 
Henrik POV, up to t80 / 875bc

Spoiler :

Fairly smooth opening settling 2nd city on stone and chopping exp workers and a settler out while building mids in cap.
Finished pyramids pretty safely at 1400bc and just about to settle my 5th city. Just did double swap into slavery and rep. Feeling p good about this one. second city ended up being super useful, 2 workers, a settler, a boat, horses and stone within 30 turns.
I love creative. Couldn't do this without it. I'll have my videos of this up in a couple weeks.
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I'm looking forward to the video
 
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