Nobles Club CXXV - Qin

[Robert FIN]

@Robert

Spoiler :

It's time to transform into workshop economy. Change civic into Caste System and workshops get an extra boost. On your way to Steel, Chemistry add another hammer to workshop. Now any city with enough food will be a good production city. And you can also build cash to ease your maintenance drain. If the game last long enough, get Communism and transform into State Property will further boost your production.

Spoiler :

OK, I will do that. Workshop economy sounds good since we have much , even though Slavery allows transforming to too. You're right about that I'm going to get Steel/Cannons. If the game is still lasting, I'll bring cannons to wipe out the rest noobs. I'm afraid of that I finish the game before Communism, but let's rethink if something goes wrong. Thanks for the help!

 

[Amao]

@Robert

Spoiler :

Don't forget building workers. With enough workers you can quickly turn new cities into fully operational production cities. And you'll find you are unstoppable with ever growing military. A super medic died by accident? You won't even blink.

 

[pandamancer]

@Robert

Spoiler :

Are you building a cottage economy? Or farms and specialist?

If you are onto farms, I do support Amao's suggestion of workshop economy. But on top of that I would suggest that switch to castle system as well? because:
1) synergy with representation
2) synergy with workshop (+), what's more it gets better with guilds and chemistry tech, which I think is not far from what you are currently researching.
3) able to run specialist without libraries, markets... so your research stays good even slider is at 0%

But be sure to check the situation because this will conflict with your slavery civic.

Btw, I find that your stack has weakness: no spears or elephants
So if Joao sends a stack of knights, you are doomed! So check first what is his most advanced military unit.

If you attack Gandhi on the other hand, be prepared for CG2 longbows. Does he have a holy city? If yes, I think Gandhi would be a good target.

 

[pandamancer]

@Robert

Spoiler :

For the workers, I think you should "steal" some either from Liz in the previous war or from Gandhi, should you decide on attacking him.

This map is full of jungle, it would be illogical for the AI not to produce many workers.

 

[Robert FIN]

@Amao, Pandamancer:

Spoiler :

Yes, I try not to forget workers. They're still useful since I want to build workshops.

And my economy tries to be a hybrid solution. I've heard its the best. I have cottages and farms and workshops. I'm good in all sights then. I'll adopt Caste right now.

 

[pandamancer]

@Amao, Pandamancer:

Spoiler :

Yes, I try not to forget workers. They're still useful since I want to build workshops.

And my economy tries to be a hybrid solution. I've heard its the best. I have cottages and farms and workshops. I'm good in all sights then. I'll adopt Caste right now.

Spoiler :

Make a long term plan, before you make a switch

 

[Robert FIN]

Imageshack doesn't work so I must wait until it works...

 

[Robert FIN]

Imageshack works now, so I continued the campaign...

1480AD

Scouting

Spoiler :

I thought about the Caste System strategy.. I think that I still need Slavery to support my army. I will build some workshops anyways.

Here's a trade with my vassal:

Spoiler :

Enemy lands:

Spoiler :

I'm unsure what to do now. I don't know where to attack. Should I capture Gandhi's all cities before Joao? I'm unsure and afraid about the war. Could you guys help me a little?

Save:

 

[pandamancer]

I checked your last save. Here goes my thoughts.

Spoiler :

Notre Dame will be useful in the upcoming battles especially especially when you get the "the world considers you a villain" status after you declared on Gandhi. Elizabeth got silk, elephants and sugar better trade your excess resources. Joao is willing to trade you 15 gold per turn, give one of your excess resources as well.

Your trade education > aesthetics + divine right is not a good deal. Divine Right tech is useless, even though it costs a lot and the AI likes to research it. You got horses and Elizabeth got elephants. Maybe you should ask for aesthetics, philosophy and horseback riding? I think aesthetics unlocks literature for HE. Horseback for horse archer/war elephants. And then philosophy for pre-requisite in liberalism. It is not game breaking so you can still let it go if you wish.

For future Great People, go for golden age. I don't recommend you build the shrine for Islam. But if opportunity comes to build it for Hindu or Jewish, go ahead and do so. Spread the Hindu and build the SM (since you are industrious + stone). Don't worry if you don't succeed, the failgold is not bad either. Btw, hindu temples with +2 hammer and +2 gold is not something to sneeze at. Except you lose the hammers once you declared war later on.

I see that Stalin has become the vassal of Giggles and Gandhi the vassal of Joao. Worse is Isabella and Giggles view you as their worst enemy. Your religion is causing you trouble. Later on, run theocracy to get positive diplo points from Isabella. Really hope that they would not gang up with you as the picture now shows.

I don't recommend you go for Joao, his elephants and knights will definitely swallow you up. Go for Gandhi instead (Joao's forces will need to pass through Gandhi and Elizabeth to reach you). You need pikes (about 4-7). I will leave it to you if you want to wait for cannons or pre-cannons to attack. Add some war elephants/knights for support.

Your economy is not good. You can't afford to go to war and is not profitable yet. Gandhi has a double-religion holy city (Delhi) but no shrines . Having built the AP, let him pop up a Great Prophet to build one his shrines before you conquer it

In terms of tile improvement, you need to change the banana mine in the capital to plantation. Your near city shanghai is short of food. IMO, this is a food rich but hammer poor map. Your cottage/farm is doing well but you military production is really weak. You need the HE and some workshops built ASAP. Xian needs a grocer.

Stop building cottages, they are not useful now at this point (1480 AD) unless you are going for space. Build one or two workshops around the city to improve your production. Don't be shy to pillage some under performing cottages. If you plan to go for mass whipping, again your cottages are useless now since you don't have the population to work on it. Also you unit support upkeep is in bad shape now. It will get worse if your city population will get smaller.

Ironically, your capital lacks cottages to make your bureaucracy civic profitable.
Also, capital is not good now because your gold generating building multipliers are not present. You are running 0% in the slider and you don't have markets or grocers.

Let me also show you something:

Bureaucracy 1480 AD

science 100%: 413 bpt 0%: 75 bpt
expense: 297

Vassalage 1480 AD

science 100%: 391 bpt 0%: 75 bpt
expense: 279

Cool, you can get more 22 bpt in bureaucracy. Unfortunately, you don't have the economy to support it. So Vassalage is much profitable here. Maybe other people can give you advises as well. Good luck!

 

[Robert FIN]

@pandamancer: Thanks a lot for the post. I agreed to most of the thoughts but I am still unsure about my war tactic. Where to attack, should I split up the stack and how to defence the captured cities. Can you help me forums?

 

[sinimusta]

@pandamancer: Thanks a lot for the post. I agreed to most of the thoughts but I am still unsure about my war tactic. Where to attack, should I split up the stack and how to defence the captured cities. Can you help me forums?

I gave this yesterday a short try, played until Gandhi was annihilated. I remembered wrong that Gandhi would break free if he lost enough of his land, so he had to be taken completely. I automated the workers and put cities to build all knights (after trade for HBR) + build the spiral minaret just for fun. One thing I noticed that many cities lacked forges and barrackses: you're ind so use the forge! Another basic thing is that you should have military police in all cities, the unhappiness penalty is totally unnecessary.

Anyway I think this game can be won with trebs as a domination so that's why I don't think too much attention should be given to having a good long-term economy. I started the war right after the saving point since troops near Canterbury are almost in full strenght and strong enough for taking cities. The stronger northern stack went for Vijanayara and troops near Canterbury went for Delhi, then marched all the way towards Gandhis southern cities. I attacked cities with trebs first, then Chokonus for more collateral if necessary, then cr promoted maces. I used knights in cuirassier style: pure mounted stack capturing Gandhis weaker cities.

I'm not sure if it wouldn't be better to go for Joao first in order to get Gandhi to break free, that way Gandhi could be capitulated and no need to take all cities. Also don't do as I did (was lazy) and build all knights, build trebs for collateral, maces for city attack and enough pikes for stack def otherwise Joaos knights and WEs will hurt. Chokonus will deal with enemy melee units. Also I strongly recommend making a GG medic.

As for defending captured cities, if it's not threatened leave only one guy, if it's threatened maybe 2-4. Keep most units in the offensive stack.

 

[Robert FIN]

1480AD-1550AD

The Disappointment

Spoiler :

In 1500AD I command my troops to enter Indian territory.. to conquer their cities!!

Spoiler :

I tried to build SM but I lost and got the failgold.

Delhi captured 1520AD:

Spoiler :

[

Trebuchet and Cho-ko-Nu got killed. No more losses there. Delhi is double holy city with yum-yum wonders .

In the same year Vijayanagara got captured:

Spoiler :

Joao starts teching Rifling... I'm so dead. How can I survive against Riflemen!!??

Another city captured with a few losses.

Spoiler :

I stop here because I don't know how to proceed.. Joao has Rifles online in few turns. What I should do?? I can't win this battle.

Please help!! My epic campaign in going to end with a loss if I don't get a new plan!!

 

[dalamb]

@Robert:

Spoiler :

You can't win against lots of rifles, but can you outproduce him with "obsolete" units? or does he have enough production to get riflemen built soon?

 

[sinimusta]

@Rob: Maybe in this case it's really time turn back to tech a bit and get the big guns . You could try out how far you can get with Joao and if it's too hard try to make peace. Then your aim should be Steel. Cannons should be able flatten down any rifle defenses Joao can make if you have enough of them. With cannons the other units don't really matter that much. Your empire is so huge that you should be able to make enough with using the whip. I guess workshops could be better at this point, especially if they're on grassland. Anyway get fast to Steel by setting your cities to build weath, use lot of rep scientists where you don't have mature cottages and you should get there fast enough.

 

[Robert FIN]

Thanks for help to @dalamb and @sinimusta!

1550AD-1660AD

Living in a Nightmare

Spoiler :

After a few years Chinese manage to negotiate peace with Joao:

Spoiler :

I gave him Gandhi's city .

I teched slowly my way through Chemistry and Steel. Now I don't have money to upgrade my units... I turn tech slider to 0% and start cannon spam.

Gandhi has Rifles too now.

Joao has cavarly now.. Will I ever make it?

Here's the power graph telling that I'll lose.

Power graph:

Spoiler :

This is pathetic.. Joao is better in every sight. I must win! I've tried my best but seems like it will be wasted. I must ask your help once again. I don't know should I attack or not... HELP!!

 

[Robert FIN]

I gave up. Loser is always loser

Chinese Empire is now laid waste...

 

[pandamancer]

Thanks for help to @dalamb and @sinimusta!

1550AD-1660AD

Living in a Nightmare

Spoiler :

After a few years Chinese manage to negotiate peace with Joao:

Spoiler :

I gave him Gandhi's city .

I teched slowly my way through Chemistry and Steel. Now I don't have money to upgrade my units... I turn tech slider to 0% and start cannon spam.

Gandhi has Rifles too now.

Joao has cavarly now.. Will I ever make it?

Here's the power graph telling that I'll lose.

Power graph:

Spoiler :

This is pathetic.. Joao is better in every sight. I must win! I've tried my best but seems like it will be wasted. I must ask your help once again. I don't know should I attack or not... HELP!!

@Robert

Spoiler :

Saddened to hear that your campaign turned out to be a failure. By the looks of your save file in 1660, here are your major mistakes for the last 20 turns (I am mentioning this so you won't fall for it in the future):

a) Letting Elizabeth be first in liberalism. This is seriously a game breaking mistake! You are roughly in the tech lead by 1480 AD but your vassal out-teched you in liberalism as she gained momentum. She is now your vassal and she is a good techer. It is your duty as the master to dictate what technology she should research and then trade for it.
b) I noticed that when the AI demands something, you always give it to them (even with Gandhi). This is a big no-no as they will get too advanced and you will have a hard time fighting their advanced army.
c) No HE still. Unless you want a challenge
d) You are relying for slavery too much for army production. Slavery is starting to get inefficient in unit production during renaissance. You should work on high hammer tiles or go for drafting (using Nationhood)
e) You declared war too early. Like I said in post #109

Your economy is not good. You can't afford to go to war and is not profitable yet.

f) You conquered Delhi but you forgot something I mentioned in post #109

Gandhi has a double-religion holy city (Delhi) but no shrines . Having built the AP, let him pop up a Great Prophet to build one his shrines before you conquer it

No shrines == no gold per turn. You conquered a useless holy city. UoS and AP is not helpful.
g) You fought a war without assurance that you can win. You win the war only if the AI offers something in the table. Let me show you something:

This is your info screen at 1480 AD:

This is your info screen at 1660 AD:

As we can see in 1480, you are 2nd in mfg. goods (prod). Gandhi is the first here by checking the graph. That means he can outproduce you in army. In terms of population, you are 2nd but the difference between the 1st (Joao) and 2nd (Qin) is big (20-30% more). Therefore if war starts, Joao can whip more army than you.

By 1660, it gets worse. Mfg. goods (prod) made by Joao (1st) is outproducing you by almost 300-400%. The only way to beat him is to have more advanced army. Population wise, he is 30-40% bigger than you. In simple terms, you are fighting a bigger army here.

I hope this makes it clear why I mentioned "Joao's army will swallow you alive"

h) You did not utilize the strengths of your traits. Most of the time, forges (industrious) are important buildings next to granaries. You did not focus on choko-nus (free drill 1 and CG1) instead go for maceman (no promotions). May I know the logic for this?
j) Your research plan needs improvement. Your plan to research military science is already too late. Joao has cavalry. Instead your tech plan should be to rifling.
k) Your city tiles needs rework. I and Amao mentioned that you should go for workshop. But you must not neglect the food. I haven't checked the latest save but in 1660, your "mined banana" is still not turned into a plantation. Making your capital unable to work on the workshop you just generated.

--
I am sorry to say, your situation now will force you to tech until rifling or industrialism to secure a win against Joao (assuming you avoid additional mistakes in the future). Thus, delaying your victory.

If you want, go back to 1480 and redo your strategy.

 

[Robert FIN]

Thanks for the tips pandamcer ! Anyways, I'm not feeling like I'd want to go back to the old saves. Thanks for the map NZ, it was nice with interesting terrain !

 

[Aje]

1844AD Cultural win - Score 41K - Monarch normal NHNE
My first cultural win on the NC


I probably screwed up pretty much, but hey it's a win and it was fun to try something different.

 

[dalamb]

@Aje: congrats on your first culture win.