Nobles Club IV - Frederick of Germany

[Diamondeye]

I know this is kind of offtopic, but I play Prince now, moved up from noble a bit of time ago and I was thinking of giving Monarch a shot, if anyone from the nobles' club was interested in it, I could easily take some screenshots and make it a kind of learning game for everybody, myself included, by splitting it into episodes and posting them here (on CivFanatics, not in this thread of course), and get some feedback. Does that have any interest?

 

[Jaaboo]

Okay got time to squeeze in a short round before work; This game is going well, I warred early and I think it paid off, but also an interesting diplomatic situation is developing that I may need some advice on.

Spoiler 25 AD :

Pacal must die. After reading the reports made by others, I realized that it wasn't just a fluke, the little . .. .. .. . likes to expand. Already he had three other cities (THREE!) for six cities in total that I've seen. He re-founded his city by the jumbos and the rice, east of Hamburg, and it was there that he made his final stand. Young fool, he should have spent his time building an army instead of spreading out like a disease. Regardless, he's gone, but he left me a second religion in Hamburg in case I want to run priests there, and a little bit of extra happy if I need.

The spoils of war: three cities, Mutal, Lakamba and Uxmal all fairly close to each other in Maya. I'm not thrilled with their placements, but Pacal's former seat will be a very good city for Freddy - lots of food early on for the whip, two happy resources and lots of rivers later on if I want to make it a production center. Could even be a GP farm for Freddy. So many possibilities. The other two are a bit close, there's some overlap of their BFCs, but they come with an infrastructure already (the computer is such a little road builder), horses, iron and food all hooked up (well except the iron) and a religion that is letting them pop their borders to their full fat cross.

This will likely be the last large war I get myself into for a while, at least until I have a tech edge on Monty. No doubt Montezuma and I will clash, he's setting himself up as the world villian. I could get Monotheism from him if I want, maybe to keep him somewhat happy with me. He's on the warpath already, showing "We have enough on our hands" and a huge power lead over everyone but Washington and myself. Even then his power level is impressive and I do not want to be attaked by him. I need to tech and tech fast so I can hold my borders. Freddy demands that the true might of the German people be shown with the panzer and the hammer and I agree. Now is the time to survive to the industrial era, and enter that era with a force never seen before on this world.

So, diplomacy is a sticky situation here. I don't want to piss off Monty too bad, but I really don't want to piss off the other leaders either. There is no doubt that they will ask me to join the pending war (my assumption is that Monty will attack the weak Ghandi first and Ghandi will ask his Buddhist bloc to rush to his defense, and they'll both ask me. I may have to be prepared to help contain Monty, but I don't want to weaken him too much, just enough to keep him a threat to the others. Not sure how to go about that.

Previous Checkpoints:
Checkpoint 1: 1875 BC
Checkpoint 2: 245 BC
Checkpoint 2.5: 25 AD

 

[Bleys]

First of all, I want to thank you all for such a terrific response to this series. We are grabbing a few more players with each subsequent game, and everyone seems to be enjoying the format and learning quite a bit which has always been our primary goal.

So anyway, I didnt start the game when I did the screenshots for the OP, I was in the middle of something in the current LHC. So I decided to start fresh when I woke up this morning. I also had originally intended to play it at Monarch, but at the last minute I decided to change gears and go with Prince again, but with a hitch, zero cottages, a straight farm-food-based SE.

So here is my first round, 4000 BC through 3000 or so, only, since I feel it deserves an update at this point.

Spoiler :

Naturally, when I re-loaded the game, I got a new spot for my Scout. This made my decision VERY hard. At first glance yesterday, I was looking at settling in place, because any move would cost a turn and a forest, and I didnt want to waste bare plains hill if it popped a metal by setting on it. Instead, this morning when I restarted, my scout showed me I was on a peninsula:



So I had some choices. I was going to move for sure, but which way? IN the end, I decided that I would go 1E, which would keep both clams, and create a spot for a city on the far end of the peninsula. I moved my scout to the edge, no seafood out there, but still a decent spot, I could chain-farms in easily. Started thinking "hmm, yummy Colossus spot". I was going to need income, and was thinking of going for the GLH and Colossus combo if this started looking like a Fractal or Island based map.

Then I sent my scout onto the first hut in the area, and I get a pretty big hit:



Honestly, I was almost going to re-start. One of the things about Prince that kind of makes it REALLY unbalanced and inconsistent as a learning thing is that huts give techs far more often than Monarch. But then I decided no cottages was going to be painful enough, and kept it, naturally, LOL. So, onward my scout went, and sure enough, another hut gives me:



LOL, ok, well since I was so far east already, and still hadnt found any copper, I kept it again. I am trying really hard to stop re-loads, and I suppose that has to go for the good stuff as well as the bad. Still, pretty lucky, 4 huts total so far, 2 of them pretty strong techs.

Finally I find some copper, and man, I am REALLY worried now. I have only met 1 AI, Pacal, to this point, and I was sure I would spot another every time I moved another tile east. But I hit water, and 2 lions. It took me 4 turns to dicsover there was no seafood around the coast by the copper because of those buggers! I didnt want to lose my only scout.



In the meantime, my worker is done, and sets to the task of chopping out 2 Workboats and another Worker, while I tech Ag (original plan was fishing to BW to ag for farms right away). I also took this opportunity to dot-map a bit, and this is where I am:



My plan is to settle a couple cities while trying to chop out the Great Wall and Oracle. I plan to take MC with the Oracle, and try to pop a GE for the Mids. If I dont get the GE by 1 ADish, I will chop out the Mids if it costs every forest in sight, because my entire game strat depends on it so much. So after Ag, its Masonry, Myst, Poly or Med, Priesthood, Pottery. Builds are 2 boats, a 2nd worker, 2 settlers, Great Wall then Oracle right away (with a unit here and there for whip overflow into the Wonders).

Next update after I either get or dont get the Mids. If I dont get them, I plan to restart at Monarch, and bee-line only the Wall and the Mids, and REX to the copper. With Copper so far away, an Axe rush is pretty bleak, and an early IW is in order. Pacal will be ready, and have a bunch of cities. There is very little doubt I have to choose the Mids (if no GE) or troops. Still wondering what kind of map this is, there is too much land to fogbust, and I want the GW for spy points on Pacal as well, with all the cities he is likely to have I will need them for revolts on the bigger ones when it is time for him to die.

Wow, this is a ROUGH map, I dont envy any of you who tried to move up. I am actually GLAD now that I decided to stay at Prince, but my "no cottage" idea is looking to be plenty of handicap! Good luck all! Remember, one of Freddy's traits is ORG, so you CAN REX a bit more liberally, and Courthouses are cheap, so get CoL and chop/whip/produce em out quick!

 

[Bleys]

I know this is kind of offtopic, but I play Prince now, moved up from noble a bit of time ago and I was thinking of giving Monarch a shot, if anyone from the nobles' club was interested in it, I could easily take some screenshots and make it a kind of learning game for everybody, myself included, by splitting it into episodes and posting them here (on CivFanatics, not in this thread of course), and get some feedback. Does that have any interest?

This series is sort of designed for players like you Diamond. Our goals are to help players stuck in the Warlord-Noble-Prince rut move up the difficulty ladder with some confidence. Our sharing of the situations and decisions in a common game format strongly contributes to the learning process.

We already have a number of players who are confident enough to tackle Prince, and even Monarch. The saves are set up in a way that anyone can play the level and speed of their choosing, and even use their favorite MOD. Rolo (of Lonely Hearts fame) makes the saves as generic World Builder maps, which can be run as Scenarios with the AIs getting all the correct bonuses for any level of choice.

You are more than welcome to play your game right in this thread, and follow along with others, even offering you own insights on their questions. We have a number of stronger players who already play these, and other strong players who lurk and offer advice. Its working well, I think, I can see a TON of progress in my own game, as well as solid improvement in a few of the folks who didnt feel strong enough to play above Noble. I almost think that most of the regulars who have played every game are already at Prince themselves. Maybe not winning as efficiently, but certainly having more tools, skills and strategy ideas to make a run at "the next level".

So Welcome Aboard! Our #1 main rule, HAVE FUN!! We have a great bunch, and maybe you will learn a thing or two yourself, and find the confidence to kick your own level of play up a notch!

 

[Groogaroo]

Bleys Perfect timing! I've just played to 3000BC and I'm struggling with my dot map so I'll have a look at yours

Here's as far as I got with my dotmap!

Dotmap 3000BC

Spoiler :

I'm probably going to use my capital as science city running scientists so I'm looking for a strong commerce city to move my palace to later. I want another two specialist/science cities plus a production city. The production city in the east with copper is so food poor I may have to move it to grab the Rice instead of the cow, but its getting a further and further away!

Any advice would be great.

 

[Diamondeye]

This series is sort of designed for players like you Diamond. Our goals are to help players stuck in the Warlord-Noble-Prince rut move up the difficulty ladder with some confidence. Our sharing of the situations and decisions in a common game format strongly contributes to the learning process.

We already have a number of players who are confident enough to tackle Prince, and even Monarch. The saves are set up in a way that anyone can play the level and speed of their choosing, and even use their favorite MOD. Rolo (of Lonely Hearts fame) makes the saves as generic World Builder maps, which can be run as Scenarios with the AIs getting all the correct bonuses for any level of choice.

You are more than welcome to play your game right in this thread, and follow along with others, even offering you own insights on their questions. We have a number of stronger players who already play these, and other strong players who lurk and offer advice. Its working well, I think, I can see a TON of progress in my own game, as well as solid improvement in a few of the folks who didnt feel strong enough to play above Noble. I almost think that most of the regulars who have played every game are already at Prince themselves. Maybe not winning as efficiently, but certainly having more tools, skills and strategy ideas to make a run at "the next level".

So Welcome Aboard! Our #1 main rule, HAVE FUN!! We have a great bunch, and maybe you will learn a thing or two yourself, and find the confidence to kick your own level of play up a notch!

Thank you for the kind words I have started a threat in this section of the forums called "Monarch attempt (Nobles' club players are welcome!)", and look foward to lots of advice and corrections from you guys. Anyway, take a look and throw in a comment please, as I can't wait to get to the action but need some opinions on techpath/settling!

I might post the save once I have started myself so that you people can join along and try out your own tactics or ideas.

EDIT: URL for my thread is http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=270235

 

[littlej]

Well hopefully I'll have time to start the game this weekend (it's hard to say). But like Groo, I plan to take my time, I feel like I really did rush the last game (which I think is part of my problem, I tend to rush the game after the mid point). I'm still debating on moving up to Prince or staying at Noble (I tried a few prince starts, so I'll toss a coin before I start).

I think the initial plan is Settle in place, kick out a worker and chop a couple boats. So that means BW-Fishing, but I'm not sure after that. Sailing might be worth taking and so will the Wheel (especially once we start kicking out settlers). Looks like a fair bit of jungle to the north of us, so IR will be needed to settle up there.

Actually now that I think about it. I could get the GrLighthouse on line to start picking up GrMerchants, which would sustain an early rush.

 

[v8_mark]

Well, I did very well last time out with Kublai on Prince, so Monarch it is this time. I'm another one who didn't quite have the confidence to take one of these game on Monarch before now, so this should hopefully be a lot of fun. I'm also hoping the map will do me one or two favours.

First spoiler is for 4000BC thoughts:

Spoiler :

Think I'll probably play it by the book and go with a Fishing start, followed by Bronze Working. Then we'll play it from there, depending on whether there's copper in the vicinity.

As for the initial city placement - 1NE on the plains hill looks the option for short-term gain. Given that there's no 3 tile in the fat cross, the extra hammer from the plains hill would let me get the workboats out that much quicker, which will speed up both research (I'm thinking IW is going to be necessary quite early) and growth. I do have a horrible feeling there's a resource there, as it's not forested, but we shall see.

So, the game - Checkpoint 1, 4000BC - 2000BC:

Spoiler :

Tech order: Fishing-BW-(Agriculture popped)-Myst (I'll explain later)-Archery-AH-Wheel-Pottery (halfway through)
Build order in capital: Scout-Workboat-Workboat-Warrior-Worker-Stonehenge-Worker-Settler

A little unconventional, to say the least. Having moved the Settler onto the plains hill, the workboats came thick and fast once I had Fishing. I also took advantage of starting with Hunting for double the exploration, which was useful in the early going.

After Fishing, Bronze Working was the obvious choice, for slavery and choppage (and also to find out where the copper is!)

This was a nice bit of luck from a hut, shortly afterwards:



Very welcome, as it allowed a cut-price AH. Although I wasn't planning to farm the rice just yet (for only +1 food) it was handy having the tech so I wouldn't have to research it later.

I met Pacal to the north - fairly close, but not uncomfortably so. This was less welcome:



Now for some explanation. The reason I'd researched Mysticism was because I'd decided very early that I'd make a run at Stonehenge. This was because most of my ideal city places - including most other people's second cities, the banana/cow/ellie city - would require a border pop before they'd be anywhere near useful. I didn't particularly want to chop out a monument, or wait for a library, and there were lots of forests on hills that wouldn't be too painful to chop in the long-term, so I went for it. And lo and behold:



That was the last major highlight - I still only have one city, which is unusual, but I should be well-placed to REX my way towards Maya, and Stonehenge should help the cities get online that much quicker. I was a little concerned that Pacal would try to steal my horses, but he's got his own - so that's alright. Much of my army this game is likely to be mounted, to be honest - with elephants and horses, HBR becomes a bit more of a priority.

So, the situation at 2000BC:



Berlin (still my only city):



You'll note that I haven't farmed the rice yet. Frankly, I don't consider it worth it for a single extra food - would rather work the mines for extra production. It'll happen when the +2 health becomes necessary, or when my workers have nothing better to do.

...and a tentative dotmap:

 

[grandad1982]

You guys are monsters I haven't even finished KK yet and some of your are wellon the way with this one!
I'll reserve this post for my initial thoughts and general plan of action.

One thing I'm might try is a zero cottage empire! Just food and production for a possible conquest win! I really want to us the UU agaqinst other tanks as well so I might leave one fool alive till I can roll over them!

Right got to finish KK!

 

[Groogaroo]

Gosh! A lot of you guys are going for monarch! Well good luck to you all! I'm still in a dizzy about where to settle my cities on this map? So I'm still at 3000BC, spent the last two hours looking at my screen drawing dotmaps and trying to think of the best way forward.

Here are some more thoughts on the map and ideas about

Spoiler :

Ugh! This map is a pain! At first I thought it, great... loads of room to expand, but after consideration I'm stuck with where to go from here and I'm only at 3000 BC!

The problem I'm finding is that strip of jungle is going to hold me back until ironworking, the land below it is barren and settling above the jungle line is gonna be a killer in maintenance! There are a load of nice food resources around our capital but not enough land to space cities in there.

So I think these are the main choices

A) build up a compact empire to begin with around the capital those cities will just work the food and run scientists

B) Settle in the jungle and get IronWorking ASAP and build a stack of workers to chop myself up

C)Turn in to a jibbering wreck if I ever see another dot map again!

 

[AndiD]

Spoiler :

Ugh! This map is a pain! At first I thought it, great... loads of room to expand, but after consideration I'm stuck with where to go from here and I'm only at 3000 BC!

The problem I'm finding is that strip of jungle is going to hold me back until ironworking, the land below it is barren and settling above the jungle line is gonna be a killer in maintenance! There are a load of nice food resources around our capital but not enough land to space cities in there.

Spoiler :

I learned this the hard way some time ago. Settling in the jungle is no issue - as long as you have 1-2 tiles with 2+ food, a good hammer resource (let the lone pop work it and do infrastructure stuff) or a good commerce resource (let the city at least pay its maintenance). IW is expensive early - but as soon as you get it (check with other priorities) one or two packs of workers turn your city faster into a powerhouse than it can grow...

 

[schwartz]

Previous Rounds:
Round 0 - Initial Thoughts

Round 1 - (4000 BC - 2800 BC):

Spoiler :

Round 1:
I moved the scout SE and settled in place, grabbing the two fish + rice. Tech was set to agriculture with a worker queued

3720 BC:
Buddhism FIDL

The scout headed east and uncovered a bucnh of plains hills. Popped a hut for 38 coins and swung him back towards the SW to scout the land there, he popped another hut for a map that revealed that his time spent coming back to the west was wasted



3480 BC:
Met Pacal.. Don't really care for him too much

2 turns later my worker completes and I start a warrior, worker goes to farm the rice. Hinduism also FIDL

Shortly after I popped a hut for another map and quickly popped another for a warrior.

3040 BC:
Met Montezuma, his lands are to the NE.

2800 BC:
Fishing in, start Mysticism. Warrior finished in the capital and I start a settler. I stopped here, going to make a dotmap later and pick the game up again tomorrow night.

The map with a couple possible cities:



I'll also add a city 1W of the rice that's just outside the capital's fat cross, though it's not marked yet.

 

[Diamondeye]

Groogaroo, if you need help with city placement find the article written by OTAKUjbski in the War Academy. If you still have trouble, send me or (if he has the time) OTAKUjbski a minimap or post one and give your suggestions/arguments for a dotmap. Also, I am currently playing a monarch attempt as mentioned above. I am currently discussing capital site, but I guess once that is decided I will do a minimap if you are interested in sneak-peeking a bit, join in on the fun and the discussion. Try to post some thoughts - the worst thing that can happen is that you are wrong and then you'll still learn something

 

[Jaaboo]

Groo, I have a hard time deciding where I want to put cities as well. What I've been trying to do is develop an early production city (my capital most likely) and one other city in which I can create troops to make sure I'm protected, or, in most cases, carve out some more room for me. Then I try to find some good mid to late game cities. My favorite has been State Property and a river workshop/watermill town for modern-era military units (and maybe space ship parts if I'm going that route).

Something else I just played with which I may want to duplicate is the combination of the Globe Theatre and Nationhood and draft like crazy out of that town. I have to figure out what gives experience there though, I think settled GGs only and Theology? However, even for just pumping out green units and combining high food and high production (again, workshops/watermills and levee's seem good for that), having a barracks, a settled GG or two would be nice. Again, that's easy to say on 'paper', but often hard to put into game.

So I just often go with my gut. Rivers & grassland to me have been saying workshops more than cottages because if I really need to devote my empire to research I'll just devote the city to it and turn all those loverly hammers into beakers.

Also, regarding this game:

Spoiler :

There isn't a lot of good land, too many plains for my taste. Pacal has some, though. Also, I think in this game, we have a good solid mountain defense from the rest of the continent. I don't think it would be a bad idea to set up a forward city vs. Monty to secure the west portion of the continent for our own.

 

[Diamondeye]

Groo, I have a hard time deciding where I want to put cities as well.

if you need help with city placement find the article written by OTAKUjbski in the War Academy. If you still have trouble, send me or (if he has the time) OTAKUjbski a minimap or post one and give your suggestions/arguments for a dotmap. Also, I am currently playing a monarch attempt as mentioned above. I am currently discussing capital site, but I guess once that is decided I will do a minimap if you are interested in sneak-peeking a bit, join in on the fun and the discussion. Try to post some thoughts - the worst thing that can happen is that you are wrong and then you'll still learn something

Always ready to help, as you see Send me a raw map and your dotmap and I'll feedback ya.

 

[Groogaroo]

Hey! Thanks everyone!

Well I don't normally struggle with city placement or specialization, just finding this map a bit tough! Plus whats the point of playing NoblesClub if we don't ask for help and feedback! Thats the whole point!

I've made a new dot map and put some thoughts on what I'm aiming for in the spoiler below. Any comments/suggetions/advice greatly welcome.

Yes! Still at 3000BC

Spoiler :

Below is the dotmap I'm currently working with, any suggestions are welcome! and here is my thinking behind it.

First off, I'm planning to run a specialist economy, running scientists and lightbulbing.

Okay!

White dot is the capital.

Red and yellow were my idea for compact cities that only purpose would be to run a few specialists in the early game to get my tech rate going quickly.

I've already decided thats probably not a good idea and I should really try and grab some land.

so orange and blue will probably be my first cities, orange I would probably cottage and become my future capital, blue would aimed toward production.

Green and pink would come next, green is clearly production and pink (well I don't like pink much, 1 tile of the coast yuck!)



My main problem is trying to group food resources together to have science cities running scientists, which is why red and yellow would work, they bothhave enough food to run a few scientists in the early game and could also bring in some commerce through trade routes.

EDIT - Heres a raw map in case anyone wants to draw pretty dot maps!

Edit - added a raw map to the spoiler

 

[Diamondeye]

Groogaroo can you post the map without paintings so that I can paint one myself?

Also, if you plan on haing 2 cities down south, try exploring the water west of the rice, it makes moing yellow north more attractive if there is seafood or whales up there.

Also, green could be moved 1E. This gives it +1 from the city tile, and grabs Ivory. It does ofcourse give you 4 coast more, but allows for a lighthouse, and the desert tile, instead of two grasslands, and four plains (two being hills), but short-term-wise, I think it's better off 1E. I would move Blue 1N to get elephants, and move orange 1NW so that the easy-accesable ressource (cows) is immidiately improvable, instead of being in the outer ring of the BFC. Pink would move 1W and get Moai imho.

Also, another city 2E of the southern of the 2 jumbos in the northeast might be a good idea later.

 

[Groogaroo]

Sorry I forgot the raw map, edited the original spoiler to include a raw map.

Thank for takin a look.

 

[Diamondeye]

I have made a dotmap built over your own ideas, with the corrections from above plus a finishing touch, take a look;

Spoiler :

Explanation:
Yellow is split, if there is seafood within reach to the east, take position 2, else, 1 is best.
Pink could be moved 1E, although it would gain 2 mountains, it suffers no immidiate losses from the move and might fit better.
Brown is mainly backfill.
Teal should be the Moai city.

Build order: Blue, Pink, Red, Yellow, Green, Pink, Teal, Brown.
You might want to go green or pink a bit earlier though, and delay yellow.

Note: Blue is one off shore, but would overlap much more if moved 1S. Merely a suggestion. 1S might do it if you get Colossus or GLighthouse or both.

 

[Krick19]

Ok, I am ashamed to say I have never used an SE, but I think I get the idea, so I'll try until I fail.