Noob looking for some military advice

[haphazard1]

I am a near-total noob at FFH2. The PBEM games going on at Realms Beyond got me interested in the game, and I am about 100 turns into my first attempt. Having a blast so far, but I am not sure how to proceed in some areas and am hoping for advice.

I am playing on Prince with random civ/leader -- got the Ljosalfar, with Phaedra (sp? the spiritual/creative one). The start seemed good to me with four flood plains and lots of forest, and resources on hand of silk, marble, and a cow. I went for Agri to farm the FP to grow, built a couple warriors then a worker, then headed for Education to start planting cottages in my forests.

Scouts died pretty quickly -- barbs are fierce in this game. But I met a few neighbors -- Elohim, Bannor, Clan of Embers. I expanded to a second city, managed to survive Orthus -- he spawned about 10 tiles from me, so was Combat 3 by the turn he attacked my capital, but I had 9 warriors waiting. 4 survived, but I did get this nifty axe. I have since planted a third city and teched my way to found Fellowship of Leaves.

Overall I think I am doing OK for my first attempt, and not really having much idea what I am doing. But I am now facing several problems, mostly military-related.

How do I get stronger units? I see several options: BW to boost the strength of my warriors (if I have copper) and to build swords, Archery for some dextrous archers, hunters (already working on a hunting lodge). But none of these are going to be more than about 5 strength at best, 4 attack strength for bronze weapon warriors or archers. It is an upgrade and I'll gladly take it, but compared to the threats around it does not seem like much. Are swarm tactics such as I used on Orthus my only choice? Or is there a way to get stronger troops soon? (My tech rate seems decent but a couple AIs have more GNP than I do. More cottages are going down which should help, but that will take time.)

There was a big event and Acheron spawned nearby -- from a quick look in the CivPedia it looks like no one will be touching this guy for a LONG time to come. Do I just ignore him, and deal with any raiding parties as they appear? It doesn't seem like I have any alternatives.

I am also near the Guardian of Pristinus (sp?) Pass. I stayed away from it but apparently one of the AI units did not, and now there are some 8 strength gargoyles wandering around. They have not come for my cities, or I would probably be dead. But between them and Acheron I am blocked from expanding further. How can I deal with these guys? Clan of Embers is at peace with the barbs, so they are probably going to grab the whole area if I can't figure out some way of killing the gargoyles at least. Is a big (10 or 12?) stack of archers my best bet, find a decent defensive tile and let them hit me? It sort of worked for Orthus, but there was only one of him and I lost a bunch of units doing it. I don't want to just promote the damn things.

I am feeling a bit disadvantaged on unique features. I got the damn Guardian nearby, while the Bannor got Yggdrasil at their capital and the Clan got the Dragon Bones at theirs. Hopefully I have some copper nearby.

Any advice is much appreciated!

 

[Selrahc]

How do I get stronger units? I see several options: BW to boost the strength of my warriors (if I have copper) and to build swords, Archery for some dextrous archers, hunters (already working on a hunting lodge). But none of these are going to be more than about 5 strength at best, 4 attack strength for bronze weapon warriors or archers. It is an upgrade and I'll gladly take it, but compared to the threats around it does not seem like much. Are swarm tactics such as I used on Orthus my only choice? Or is there a way to get stronger troops soon? (My tech rate seems decent but a couple AIs have more GNP than I do. More cottages are going down which should help, but that will take time.)

Go for archery. Archers are pretty unbeatable on defence and decent on attack for Ljos.

You're playing the elves, so early attack is not a priority for you, especially as Arendel. If you do want to go on the offensive though the key to doing that is Gilden Silveric. He is a very solid early hero, whether on defence or attack.

I am also near the Guardian of Pristinus (sp?) Pass. I stayed away from it but apparently one of the AI units did not, and now there are some 8 strength gargoyles wandering around. They have not come for my cities, or I would probably be dead. But between them and Acheron I am blocked from expanding further. How can I deal with these guys?

Acheron is a tough nut to crack. I'd just write the area off until a *lot* later. The guardians on the other hand...

I can't figure out some way of killing the gargoyles. Is a big (10 or 12?) stack of archers my best bet, find a decent defensive tile and let them hit me? It sort of worked for Orthus, but there was only one of him and I lost a bunch of units doing it. I don't want to just promote the damn things.

Gargoyles are golem units. No promotions. Slow healing. An archer on a forested hill has a really good chance of killing off an attacking gargoyle, particularly with a guerilla or woodsman promotion. Bring 3 of them and you should be fine. Alternatively, spawn in


I'd advise doing the standard elf thing. Get Fellowship of leaves and guardian of nature. Get priesthood and start growing forests everywhere and building big big cities.

 

[haphazard1]

Go for archery. Archers are pretty unbeatable on defence and decent on attack for Ljos.

You're playing the elves, so early attack is not a priority for you, especially as Arendel. If you do want to go on the offensive though the key to doing that is Gilden Silveric. He is a very solid early hero, whether on defence or attack.

I do not really understand heroes yet. They get free XP over time (up to 100 XP), which sounds good as many promos are more powerful than in basic Civ. But as a single unit, even with promotions, it seems like he will die eventually even if you try to limit battles to ones with very good odds. And as a strength 5 unit (if I am recalling the stats correctly), even with promotions Gilden is not going to stand up to things like gargoyles with good odds.

He would be pretty good against regular barb warriors, goblins, etc. I guess I should plan to use him in that kind of role?

Gargoyles are golem units. No promotions. Slow healing. An archer on a forested hill has a really good chance of killing off an attacking gargoyle, particularly with a guerilla or woodsman promotion. Bring 3 of them and you should be fine. Alternatively, spawn in

Ah, I did not realize that golems do not get promotions. Very helpful info, thanks! Slow healing also helps, I can probably swarm them with a stack of archers and not lose too many. There are several of them, though (3?), so it is going to be expensive. But possible, which will open up some land to my southwest for a couple more cities.

I'd advise doing the standard elf thing. Get Fellowship of leaves and guardian of nature. Get priesthood and start growing forests everywhere and building big big cities.

I have just founded FoL, need a few more techs for priests and the guardian of nature civic. I am also looking at KotE for adepts -- I could really use spring to improve a bunch of desert tiles at my third city and a spot directly south of me (incense, reagents, rice, but a lot of desert). If I understand correctly I will need water mana to make spring available to my adepts. I guess that means I need Elementalism tech and then a node to be made into water mana? Is there anything else I need?

I am liking the Ljos so far -- being able to improve tiles without losing the forests is great. What causes ancient forests -- is it just having FoL as your state religion? Or do I need to do something else, like building a temple of leaves? I am building one so I can build some priests later, but I am not sure what other steps I should be taking.

Thanks for the info and advice!

 

[darklord1115]

Sounds like you're actually in a pretty good position for the elves. I play them quite frequently, and they always have problems in the early game offense. My best advice if you want to go on the warpath is:

1. Get Fellowship of Leaves (FoL) and Priesthood as soon as possible, if you haven't already. Then spam priests for a bit until you have between ten and twenty. This will enable you to summon tigers. Remember to give your priests strength upgrades, as these will pass to the tigers. Inquisition is also a good upgrade for rooting unwanted religions out of your cities. Tigers enable you to weaken enemy stacks before you hit them with your main units and are also good options for exploring dungeons.

2. Get Bronze Working and copper to upgrade your existing warriors and create swordsmen. Your archers will not upgrade their weapons until you get longbowmen, so either keep them in your cities or send them out in packs. A stack of bronze swordsmen/priests should enable you to keep things going your way in the early game battles.

3. Get with the magic. Your elves can't build catapults, so the only way you can lower city defenses is to use magic or build Pact of the Nilhorn and get giants. Ideal magic combos are fire and air/shadow mana. Fire will get your mages fireballs, which can lower defenses and do direct damage. Air will get your mages the maelstrom ability, which lowers the strength of entire stacks. Shadow will enable blur and shadowwalk spells, which can help you bypass city defenses entirely. Otherwise you will lose tons of critters for every city you take. Enchantment mana is also a good idea for elven armies as a general buff, but if you have to choose, go for fire first then anything else. You need to research Knowledge of the Ether and Sorcery to get mages.

4. Don't worry too much about the gargoyles. Three or four basic warriors will take one down, only two or three spawned from the pass to begin with, and they won't come inside your territory (I think).

5. Don't worry too much about Acheron, he just stays put in his city and the AI is usually incapable of cracking him. Wait until you have a nice stack of mages/priests/champions/heroes with some decent mana, then take him down and grab the Hoard.

6. Speaking of heroes, get Gilden ASAP. He's a great defensive hero and can dominate the early game. If you get FoL, research up the tech tree to get Kithra, a horse archer hero, Yvain, and Duin Halfmorne if you let him in the game. Kithra is great for taking down cities, Yvain is a super-priest and Duin is a werewolf badass who you should always take on an offensive campaign.

7. Speaking of offense, KILL THE ORCS! ASAP! If you let them research up to champions you'll be facing ogres and they will ruin your day. Plus the orc cities have warrens, which means they can outproduce you by a factor of 2:1, all other things being equal. Besides which, they're evil and will declare war on you at the drop of a hat anyway. Start hitting them as soon as you have a good stack with a few mages, a bunch of priests, some archers, at least one hero and a bunch of swordsmen/champions. If you get a coalition going against them, so much the better.

8. Regarding resources, often your best bet is to explore sea tiles. A few out-of-the way overseas colonies can net you otherwise unattainable resources. Shoot for metals and resources that improve happiness. You'll need happiness resources to keep the war weariness down to managable levels.

9. Regarding defense, remember that the elves get bonus movement and attack strength in forests, and Priests of Leaves can bloom forests on top of existing tile improvements. Use this to your advantage: close off your borders with a wall of forests when you go to war. This will slow down any attacking force and give you a bonus for your counterattack!

10. In the late game, assassins and druids are your friends. Druids can entangle their opponents, preventing them from moving or attacking, and assassins take down the weakest members of a stack (i.e. mages, weak summons and critters that just won a battle with one of your units). Use druids to hold enemy stacks in place, slam them with direct damage magic attacks, hit the stronger survivors with summons, then finish them off with champions and assassins.

11. At different times during the game, you may be tempted to use March of the Trees, your worldspell. Use this spell in the early game, NEVER in the late game unless you're completely out of options. It will remove all the ancient forests in your empire, which can torpedo your economy. However, it will give you a treant for every ancient forest, which can really ruin the day of whoever is attacking you. The treants only last for five turns, so this is a purely defensive spell.

Hope this helps!

 

[haphazard1]

Thanks for the advice, darklord1115!

By "the orcs" I assume you mean the Clan of Embers? (Still learning the FFH2 lore.) So far I have not really had any interaction with the AI civs, other than some competition for space. (The Bannor are really close to the east, about 4 tiles between their capital's borders and mine now that we each have 2 border pops.) The Clan are to the northwest, on the other side of Acheron, maybe 20 tiles away. They cast their world spell very early, not sure what benefit they may have gotten from it. My scout found them but was then killed by a hill giant.

I should have my first hunting lodge in a few more turns, so some hunters and hawks will start recon to learn more about what my neighbors are doing. But for now I am mostly focusing on expansion plans. I have 3 cities, and if I can clear those gargoyles I should be able to get 3 or maybe 4 more without clashing too hard with my neighbors. Get them founded and growing, some defenders, some priests to bloom and an adept or two to spring...I should be strong enough to think about forceful expansion at that point.

Assuming anything goes at all like I expect, of course. I am sure the AIs will have some plans of their own. Do the FFH2 AIs act like the Civ AIs in becoming much more warlike once most of the land has been claimed?

Thanks again for the info and advice!

 

[Jarrema]

As for heroes...
Gilden is good for early/mid game, then he has no real use; maybe you will even be tempted to sacrifice him in order to get a Shrine of Champion wonder.
You can make him into being useful longer if you gice him some 'hero only' promotions - heroic attack (or something like this, +1 strenght in offense) and heroic defense (+1 strenght in defense)

 

[Pickly]

By "the orcs" I assume you mean the Clan of Embers? (Still learning the FFH2 lore.) So far I have not really had any interaction with the AI civs, other than some competition for space. (The Bannor are really close to the east, about 4 tiles between their capital's borders and mine now that we each have 2 border pops.) The Clan are to the northwest, on the other side of Acheron, maybe 20 tiles away. They cast their world spell very early, not sure what benefit they may have gotten from it. My scout found them but was then killed by a hill giant.

Yes, clan is orcs.

Also, if you end up reading future advice threads (these races names are a lot less common, but still might show up):

Dwarves might be Luchuirp or Khazad

Elves might be Ljosalfar or Svartalfar

Demons/hyborem are the infernal civilization

Angels/Basium is the Mercurian civilization.



The orc world spell converts a number of barbarian units, I think just randomly based on the number in the world, to clan of embers civilization units. You'll often meet the orcs early in the game (If playing a computer, I'm not as sure how this tends to work in multiplayer) because some nearby barbarian units will convert to their civilization and meet you.

 

[Doug Piranha]

Actually, I think Gilden is a good candidate for Drill promotions. He starts with 1 first strike; adding a bunch more will greatly decrease the odds of him dying. I've read several stories about a single unit killing a whole army with defensive strikes.

 

[Jarrema]

yes, drill line is of course good, especially for archer hero. But 'hero' promos are also good

 

[haphazard1]

I have always been skeptical of Drill promotions, because there are units which are immune to first strikes. And isn't there at least one spell (Blur, I think?) which makes units ignore/immune to first strike?

Do the "Heroic Attack" and "Heroic Defense" promos add to base strength? Or are they added after all other calculations? Base strength boosts would be outstanding, combined with the Combat line, but if they are just added at the end then probably not worthwhile.

 

[Doug Piranha]

I have always been skeptical of Drill promotions, because there are units which are immune to first strikes. And isn't there at least one spell (Blur, I think?) which makes units ignore/immune to first strike?

Yes and yes. In my experience, the AI is not very proficient at using these features, though. Against other humans, the drill promotions probably don't make much sense.

Do the "Heroic Attack" and "Heroic Defense" promos add to base strength?

Yes. You need combat 5 before you can take the heroic strength/defense promotions, though. But after using those 9 promotions, Gilden is effectively a 14/16 unit.

 

[haphazard1]

Yes and yes. In my experience, the AI is not very proficient at using these features, though. Against other humans, the drill promotions probably don't make much sense.

Thanks for the info. In "standard" Civ IV horse archers, knights, and the like are immune to first strikes and are used often enough that I rarely bother with Drill promotions. I do not know if mounted units in FFH2 get that immunity.

Yes. You need combat 5 before you can take the heroic strength/defense promotions, though. But after using those 9 promotions, Gilden is effectively a 14/16 unit.

I am starting to understand why heroes can be powerful. 9 promotions is a lot of XP, but as long as they do not die heroes will accumulate enough for almost 10 promotions (101 XP for the tenth for non-Charismatic leaders?). I don't think I have ever had a unit get more than 6 promotions or so in standard Civ IV, even using a great general, so I am not used to thinking in those terms.

Oh yeah -- "Dinsdale!"

 

[darklord1115]

I've got to say, I started out being very impressed with FFH heroes but as time goes on they look less and less useful to me (with a few exceptions). I always wind up husbanding my heroes very carefully through battle after battle, never having them take on anything at less than 90% kill probability. Unfortunately, this means that for me most combat-oriented heroes are exactly as useful as three or four moderately levelled-up champions in terms of what they can accomplish, and I always feel more comfortable throwing away champions.

I guess some exceptions would be Yvain, Corlindale, Govannon and Duin... I never move Yvain or Corlindale out of my home territory tho. Duin is really useful for creating werewolves... But I actually hate Kithra b/c he always ends up dying on me at 98% odds or something stupid like that. Same thing with Gilden. I hate to say it, but I think most of the combat heroes are better used to sacrifice and get the Shrine wonder. Otherwise you just end up obsessing over them...

I guess Losha is another exception, since she's easy to level up to get Brigit.

 

[Clove]

Get Gilden ASAP. Build archery range in the city before Gilden though, to get the extra plus one to attack. Gilden built early can take early cities for you. Just take all the combat promos and the heroic attack promos. Then use any more promos to get whatever you need to beat the strongest enemy in the enemy city.

I like to get the hill giants as elves, as others before have said, for knocking down enemy walls. Hill Giants knocking down walls for Gilden can make a lot of headway.

Its actually kind of a good thing to have acheron the dragon next to you. I find the computer opponents will suicide a lot of their guys on acheron which keeps their numbers down. He also creates a neutral buffer zone.

I get frustrated without access to siege weapons personally. Mages or other attack magic users are much more important when you don't have catapults.

I would consider running the evil religion on a temporary basis and spam some of the evil priests for their area effect fire spell, if you feel pressed to get some firepower fast. Switch back to the nature religion once you have plenty of firepower.

I guess mounted units with flanking promotions are supposed to be a catapult substitute since they can avoid death by withdrawing... kind of... if you are lucky. Horsemen can get an extra level of flanking above horsearchers, which gives them a lot more survivability. Upgrade them to horsearchers after you get all the flanking promotions.

 

[badtim]

Agreed totally on Gilden. Archery is a massively key tech for the elves; not only do you get archers, which are 100% necessary for defense (which is all you will be doing until midgame), but also lumbermills, which boost the production of all those lovely forests you have, and then Gilden.

The way I look at heroes, in the early game they are necessary, and give you the edge over barbs and enemy stacks -- when I'm playing Calabim, I always go OO, and war doesn't really start until I've got Saverous. By that time, I should have catapults also, and the combination of the two lets me pound cities into submission. As the elves don't get catapults, yeah, you pretty much have to wait till Sorcery to start rapin' and pillagin'.

I never pick up Veil with the elves at all, though. By the time I go down the evil religion path, I'm usually deep into FoL + Guardian of Nature and my cities can't take the switch. Much more effective for me are the large cities and forests everywhere. Then when you get Bloom -- watch out!

Then again, by the time I get Bloom the game is basically over anyway.

But yeah, the start you got was a good one, and if you got FoL founded like that, you're well on your way.

 

[Selrahc]

Then again, by the time I get Bloom the game is basically over anyway.

What? Bloom comes pretty damn early if you're beelining for it, basically at the start of midgame. I don't even understand what you're attacking with to have the game wrapped up by then. Is your every elf game just a Gilden/Giants rush on a small/duel map? Or do you just completely ignore priesthood?

 

[badtim]

What? Bloom comes pretty damn early if you're beelining for it, basically at the start of midgame. I don't even understand what you're attacking with to have the game wrapped up by then. Is your every elf game just a Gilden/Giants rush on a small/duel map? Or do you just completely ignore priesthood?

yeah, maybe "game is basically over" is a bit strong a statement there

i do generally go for fireballs before priests though. i can hardly say that i'm an expert Ljos player, only done them 5 or 6 times, i generally play Fractal / Perfectworld2 / Pangea maps, standard or larger, monarch (when i feel like a casual game) or emperor (when i don't).

i tend to rex first, while teching to archery, get Gildan, then turtle and concentrate on economy / magic. I don't go to war until after i have sorcery, unless there are just tempting targets, but only if i get Gildan / giants out early and there are weaker cities to take, which is admittedly uncommon.

i tend to build a LOT of adepts and get mages as fast as possible; at that point, once sorcery finishes, i generally get priesthood, then the blooming begins. so i guess, in my mind, the advent of fireballing mages signals the death of everybody else, since that's when i can actually go to war and start really crushing people. i'm not a huge fan of tigers, maybe i should try using them more.

 

[Selrahc]

I think if you're playing as Arendel Phaedra you should definitely be taking priesthood a long time before taking sorcery. Thessa is the other way around, wanting sorcery earlier. Amelanchier could go either way.

Priesthood and bloom is a lot better for your economy than sorcery and its alchemist labs, so in general a more peaceful approach should almost always prioritize priesthood.

Tigers in significant numbers are pretty useful though. It's not like taking priesthood is a bad military move.

 

[badtim]

yeah, i usually play Amelanchier or Thessa. tigers, i usually just leave 'em as token defenders in conquered cities -- it's actually strange that i research priests so late, since in almost every other civ i play, i get them WAY before sorcery. i guess i just love those fireballs.

 

[haphazard1]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

When playing the Ljos, how do you usually handle your mana nodes? What do you prioritize?

I have one mana node in my capital's third ring, solidly mine. There is a second to the south, I should get it as my third city's culture will block the Bannor from the area and it is on a peninsula no one else should be able to reach for a while. I also have found the Standing Stones in that area, so that will provide Earth mana.

I have a lot of desert to my south and southwest - 20+ tiles of desert in an area with some rivers and nice resources (incense, rice, pigs, gold, fish). So I am thinking I will need a source of Water mana to spring all those tiles. Something to provide siege ability also sounds like a very good idea, so maybe Fire for the other node? Or are there better options, or other ways to get the Water and Fire?