Not enough close finishes

mitchm75

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
7
I'm just playing out a diplomatic victory as The Arabs on immortal. I had pre-planned a diplomatic victory from the start and it was quite hard work from the get-go, but I eventually got ahead.

My point is, I'm winning comfortably and know that I'll win at the end. I think we all know when you reach that point, you're just clicking away after conquering your own continent and levelling up destroyers on the other continent. I still enjoy choosing what to build, but the thrill is gone.

In upteen hours of playing I've never had many close finishes. I can recall only one which was probably a false space race. Shouldn't there be a handicap so that whosever behind in tech can catch up (wasn't that in Civ 4).

I've tried other turtling appoaches and have lost...eventually

Pretty much every victory boils down to a science race, so it should be handicapped whether your losing or winning, just to make closer finishes. Forget AI cheating and give all the losing teams a helping hand, whether AI or human, and you'll end up with closer finishes.
 
For me, close games happen only* if there's a strong civ on another continent which decides to go for a diplo victory. The closest game I had was once when I got the message "UN has been built" and saw that the other civ had enough city states to win :) guess I should've been more attentive!

I spent a GP for a golden age, and all my cash to buy off some city states. My cash situation wasn't great tho, and he kept buying back city states..two or three turns before the end, I finally got enough for me to win. Declared war on him then so he couldn't buy my CS back anymore..and scraped any gold I could to keep some CS which I was about to lose! I won, luckily. Was really exciting, but this sort of race has been an exception, since now I watch more carefully for other civs getting many allies early on.

* (because I play on prince, but should probably play a higher level already ;)
 
Yesterday I died. I mean my civ died.
Normally if everything goes right down the drain I don't think many people will keep playing and normally I don't either, but I was kind of bored yesterday so when I saw the French army invading me and I understood, I'm dead. I kept playing just to see something new and I must say that I am proud of myself. I endured for a very long time against the largest army I have ever seen in CiV. I didn't actually have any hopes winning the war and the French wanted me dead so I said to myself "David, be brave". But even though I knew that Goliath will win this one, it was actually fun. More fun than those victories I have had when I only press "Next Turn" all the time.
 
Close game on Emperor as Korea, the last one on a Continents map before I decided to (for a while anyway) jump to Immortal.

Started off on a continent with Arabia and Persia, and several city-states. The closest was Persia, and even then there was a large, snaky stretch of wilderness and beaches between our two civs. I remembered the killing lengths I had to go through to link up the cities I threw at Darius' direction, actually the amount of gold I was losing per turn before I could upgrade all my warriors to swords. i remembered having been able to upgrade only two, AND it would not have been possible if I didn't take away some of Persian Lunch Money before I DOWed (0 gold stack, -24 gpt). Meanwhile Arabia was way to the west, shielded by deserts and marshes and two and a half city-states, and he had all the space he needed to expand into a runaway.

Taking Darius' capital was easy enough. It pushed Harun into a thousand year war with the Persian remnants, who was also kind enough to build Himeji and Chichen Itza (IIRC) in his second capital (just west of his original). So I decided to turtle up, blast tech to Renaissance through HS+PT combo and GS spawns, get some RAs going with everyone else on the other continent when I discovered them, and only when I started getting me some nice Longswords did I renew my push onto Persian capital no.2

Good thing too, because the Arabs had Longswords too, and it was a good thing I had gotten Rifling by then and was working my way to Dynamite. And the Arabs had some of the largest armies on the planet - the kind that your adviser would say "could literally wipe our civilization off the planet"

The other continent was a mixed bag of Pachacuti, Oda Nobunaga, Ram Khamhaeng... and Napoleon. Napoleon with the Great Wall, surprisingly little else on wonders other than that, but still its Napoleon. I dunno what gave him the idea that we were meant to be enemies, probably because I eventually took the same SP tree as he did when entering the Industrial era, but I digress for now. The Siamese were conquered pretty quickly by French GW blitzkrieg, and for a time I figured the Japanese would hold off and eventually go on the roll with Samurais... but then Pachacuti was at war with him too and before you knew it the La Marseillaise was blaring over the wooden streets of vanquished Kyoto.

But back to our own continent. Right after I hammered Darius for the second time, gaining Himeji in the process, I saw that me and the Arabs were close to sharing borders. Not only that, but he had a lot of men and a CS ally to the immediate west of me, and then I spotted him fielding cannons. Any vestige of possible coexistence was thrown out of the window entirely - I simply DOWed him and charged into the fray with Riflemen and my own cannons. Took his first two cities easily enough, and I was planning to burn down the rather seemingly useless second city I acquired from him. But then as I continued pushing towards Mecca, his armies began numbering in the dozens, all pushing northwards against my advance at all costs. Sometimes they would split across the great marshes and desert between us to immediately attack my Persian holdings and stymie whatever reinforcements I had to hardbuild and send west. Meanwhile I was repeatedly losing riflemen and cannons. The decision to burn that second city down was stopped in favor of turning it into a rushbuying center. I took a third city and just as I pushed down to his fourth, my riflemen encountered a horde of positioned cannons and Longswords and they just died. Worse, he began spamming his Camel Archers to wreak havoc on my front lines, to lure unsuspecting Korean units into firetraps designed for attrition warfare, a battle I was sure to lose if I had played by his rules.

Eventually I got myself artillery, and even that was not enough to continue the push. Oh yes, the unhappiness penalties racked by my conquests. They were massive killers, and one of the things I had to do for a while to try break the stalemate was to bring the French into conflict with Arabia. You see, France had bought off most of the city-states on my continent. As previously hinted, he was also rather... guarded towards me. Well, hostile. "Ah, the puny one makes an appearance," he would chide each time I grace his poppy fields for dialogue. And he was Napoleon the Terrible of France, who was perhaps the first massive runaway I've ever seen in any game to fully flesh out the Autocracy tree.

So I had to bargain with him to get him cooking into my little stalemated war with Arabia. He wanted all my luxuries, the ones precious to keeping my happiness afloat, and I gave it to him so I may have some pressure laid off from my immediate runaway tormentors. Napoleon had FFL by then, so his city-state lackeys were coming in with artillery and Infantry, and they even gifted him some "French Infantry" which he used to smash the legions of Arab longswords and cannons. With Harun immensely distracted by this so-called second front, I hurriedly worked on bringing my happiness back to order by whatever costs, and began a renewed offensive towards Mecca.

Now with my own Infantry.

Still kept getting bombarded by Camel archers, hidden cannons, and now some pieces of artillery as well, but the push had me taking Medina and then Mecca. And with it, I had the Forbidden Palace to boost my happiness back to proper order.

Now it took another war or two to fully "cleanse" my continent of anything that wasn't Korean, and they all involved city-state allies of my own burning down the last Arabian and Persian cities. This was long after I gotten bombers, atomics and was hurriedly pushing through Modern into Future.

The other continent was now one giant stalemated battlefield between the Incans and France. The Incans were doing remarkably well against their autocratic foe, and they certainly had enough CS allies to help them out. Both of them were immensely hostile towards me, but I didn't really care. I had completed Apollo by then, working on my first series of SS Boosters.

Well, actually, I had completed all the parts by the time we reached to the point when France started lobbing atomics at the defenseless Incans and broke their century-long stalemate. The Incans you see had built the UN and were gathering up as many city-state allies as they could, and France was trying his hardest to smash through Cusco and prevent that from coming to pass...

Well, he did take an irradiated Cusco. Three turns before the UN Vote.

I had plans for the both of them however. In that same turn, I finished up my SS Boosters and Cockpit. There were several carrier groups lurking in the Southern Atlantic, close to the French capital. The signal for them to start giving the finger was given, and the next turn they began moving into position around the eastern coastlines of France.

Then I bought off all the CS allies that France and the Incans ever had.

Then the signal to go nuke happy on France was given, and Paris, Tours, Orleans and Troyes burnt in the glare of a billion suns.

At the same time I declared war on the Incans. "You are an uncivilized brute," Pachacuti said.

Then on the turn where you had to vote, I completed all my spaceship parts.:)

edit: one of the rare games where I used a couple of Turtle Ships and Ironclads to help bombard and take out a hostile CS.
 
I actually had only one close game, I was on Warlord, I think my first or second Warlord game, and Harald decided to go for Scientific Victory, back then I still automated my workers, and I've noticed that he was VERY close to my (technologically) he ended up having 3 or 4 parts of the spaceship when I finished my own. Best thrill ever.
 
The only deity game i've ever finished i was beaten to finishing the spaceship by two turns. :mad:


I was not impressed.
I prefer playing Emperor or maybe Immortal where i know i can win, as it feels like a lot of time wasted losing or getting raped by eternal armies on Deity, but if Immortal is too easy, go Deity...should eliminate the too easy feeling pretty well ;)
 
I agree the OP. I play immortal level and it's a bit too easy. My last game was romans. I eliminated america and arabia with legions, and then turtled. I were able to buil HS and ND. I didn't finish the game. When I got rifles, I had a hugr tech lead without a single RA. Could have taken diplo, domination or space victory. But I'm not moving up to deity. Instead I'm going to play a chieftain game just for fun. I can finally play different way.
 
Multiplayer is where you all should play. I have had plenty of close finishes. 2 days ago I was trying for a culture win on multiplayer for fun (arguably the second hardest victory to achieve on multiplayer before a time victory, because someone would win before that almost guarenteed).

The world had been conquered down to 4 nations, India, me (playing as Egypt), Aztecs, and China (the real player had quit after Russia had dropped him to two cities, but I was able to defend the Chinese land using it as a buffer zone against the Aztecs).

The Aztecs had no uranium and were going for a spaceship victory and was like at 81% tech in 1800 a.d. India had nukes, and my tech was behind both of them. I played the two powers off of each other in private messages giving each other locations of their units to my advantage to prolong the battles so I could keep sneaking into a cultural game. The Aztecs were finishing spaceship pieces though, so eventually I started giving the Indians all of the strategic information they needed to wipe out the Aztecs. I then provided gold to them for a nuke, killing a spaceship piece (he only needed one more at this point, and if he would have attached it, he would have won).

I then proceeded to send all my mech infantry across the water with 3 battleships to liberate my former ally Monaco which had been conquered. I took it and proceeded to harass the Indian Continent while fighting on the seas.

I finished all the policies and was 3 turns away from the Utopia Wonder... until I could no longer hold out in Monaco, and he used it as a base for his nukes to crush my capital.
 
I finished all the policies and was 3 turns away from the Utopia Wonder... until I could no longer hold out in Monaco, and he used it as a base for his nukes to crush my capital.

Close game indeed. I agree that cultural games are the hardest of the ''true'' victories to achive in mp when under constant pressure.

For the cheesy part, just conquer every civs and let 1 city alive. Finish Utopia and that's it. I wouldn't call this a close game though ;)
 
I'm just playing out a diplomatic victory as The Arabs on immortal. I had pre-planned a diplomatic victory from the start and it was quite hard work from the get-go, but I eventually got ahead.

My point is, I'm winning comfortably and know that I'll win at the end. I think we all know when you reach that point, you're just clicking away after conquering your own continent and levelling up destroyers on the other continent. I still enjoy choosing what to build, but the thrill is gone.

In upteen hours of playing I've never had many close finishes. I can recall only one which was probably a false space race. Shouldn't there be a handicap so that whosever behind in tech can catch up (wasn't that in Civ 4).

I've tried other turtling appoaches and have lost...eventually

Pretty much every victory boils down to a science race, so it should be handicapped whether your losing or winning, just to make closer finishes. Forget AI cheating and give all the losing teams a helping hand, whether AI or human, and you'll end up with closer finishes.

Playing the ai its hard to get a close end game. Unless maybe you play deity which is rather ridiculous at times. In multiplayer ffa games that I play in on a regular basis if one person gets too strong then others unite against him/her. This balances the game allowing those who are not to far behind to still have a chance.
I've seen on numerous occasions a 3 turn difference in spaceship launch. Basically what im getting at is come play some diplomatic ffa's:)

Play civ with No Quitters!!!!!!!! http://steamcommunity.com/groups/NO_QUITTERS
 
I'm just playing out a diplomatic victory as The Arabs on immortal. I had pre-planned a diplomatic victory from the start and it was quite hard work from the get-go, but I eventually got ahead.

My point is, I'm winning comfortably and know that I'll win at the end. I think we all know when you reach that point, you're just clicking away after conquering your own continent and levelling up destroyers on the other continent. I still enjoy choosing what to build, but the thrill is gone.

In upteen hours of playing I've never had many close finishes. I can recall only one which was probably a false space race. Shouldn't there be a handicap so that whosever behind in tech can catch up (wasn't that in Civ 4).

I've tried other turtling appoaches and have lost...eventually

Pretty much every victory boils down to a science race, so it should be handicapped whether your losing or winning, just to make closer finishes. Forget AI cheating and give all the losing teams a helping hand, whether AI or human, and you'll end up with closer finishes.

No, I don't think it was in Civ 4 or any earlier versions of Civ - it's just a type of game that, once you reach a certain point, you snowball and nothing can be done to stop you. You certainly can have close finishes, and I've had some great ones in Civ V (including at least one where I lost), but in any incarnation in the series if you get far enough ahead in science, you have a sufficiently superior economy and military by default that there's nothing anyone can do to stop you. It's an inevitable consequence of a system where the only real way of interacting with an opponent to interfere with their victory progress is warfare - once your ability to wage war against a superior rival is shut down, it's game over. It's not an issue specific to Civ - most 4x games have the same limitation. Indeed in Distant Worlds with story events enabled (or even not enabled if you happen across advanced ships in random encounters) if you're the one who gets the superior military ships you can't be beaten; in my beloved Master of Orion games it was exacerbated by the fact that, at a certain tech advantage, it became actually impossible for any amount of enemy firepower to get through your ships' shields. The only way to really resolve this is to have victory conditions independent of your military status - but the issue there is that (a) even in that case, you can just be invaded by a militarily superior rival aiming to prevent your victory (which can itself lead to close games - a joint Ottoman/Songhai attack essentially wiped out my empire in one Emperor late game while I was racing to a science victory, and the ship launched maybe 2 turns before I'd have lost my capital), and (b) the non-military victories are tied to scientific progress. Diplomatic victory gives you a great way of interfering with opponents by grabbing city-states, but if your opponent is going for diplo victory he's got the UN, which is very late in the tech tree.

Yesterday I died. I mean my civ died.
Normally if everything goes right down the drain I don't think many people will keep playing and normally I don't either, but I was kind of bored yesterday so when I saw the French army invading me and I understood, I'm dead. I kept playing just to see something new and I must say that I am proud of myself. I endured for a very long time against the largest army I have ever seen in CiV. I didn't actually have any hopes winning the war and the French wanted me dead so I said to myself "David, be brave". But even though I knew that Goliath will win this one, it was actually fun. More fun than those victories I have had when I only press "Next Turn" all the time.

I had the same in a game where I was at war with Germany throughout the later stages - they spammed so much I was fairly sure I wouldn't make it through the Renaissance despite a slight technological edge at the start - I survived, and for much of the war was winning although not by enough to take more than one or two cities given how heavily-defended their core territory was. I was eventually forced to concede after they got tanks while I was only just getting infantry (they had more friends left than I did, so could secure more research agreements).
 
I think sometimes it's funner when the game is really hard and your fighting against all odds for your very survival.

PS-Loved your story, smallfish.
 
In some of the Civilizations, the Great Library gave you techs that at least two other civilizations had. I think it would be interesting that for each civ you had met that already knew a tech that you didn't have, the cost of that tech would be reduced (maybe one other civ=-25%, two=-40%). Maybe adjust the modifiers depending on how many total civs were in the game and by difficulty.
 
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