Obsolescence

[Behcio]

Hi.

I'd like to request the removal of obsolescence in one situation. I was playing an evil civilization following OO. Now, Overlords give you access to a very nice unit - Stygian Guard. However, when you research Malevolent Designs, Eidolons make Stygian Guards obsolete which makes no sense since you can only have 4 of them evil maniacs.
I assume that it's not the only annoying obsolescence occuring in FFH so maybe let's bring them up here and hope for a fix

 

[rocklikeafool]

It doesn't make them obsolete in the sense of Vanilla Civ tho. You jus can't build them til you've either upgraded 4 Stygian Guards or you've built 4 Eidolons. And all other instances like this are similar, so I don't think there's much point in bringin em up. Remember that FfH has MUCH different rules than BTS or Vanilla Civ.

 

[DemonMaster]

If you build your four Eidolons then you can build Stygian Guards again until you loose an Eidolon, then you can only build Eidolons.

You don't even have to have four Eidolons in the game you just have to start building them for the game to recogize that your limit if Eidolons are met so you can start build Stygian Guards again.

So whats the problem, just upgrade four jerks to Eidolons and start build Stygian Guards.

I can admit that there is no real point of having Eidolons (or Paladins) obsolete anything since they are National Units. But there is not the biggest problem to work around either.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You can easily change this yourself by changing the unit's <bNeverObsolete> tag from 0 to 1

 

[rocklikeafool]

That would solve it. Jus open the Stygian Guard's XML file, man. Then, do as Magister suggests.

 

[Sarisin]

Normally when you have ROK religion you will not be able to get slaves - you will have the Arete civic. Still, ROK early on allows you to produce a unit that can hurry production, the Soldier of Kilmorph. They are great in speeding up wonder production especially.

However, as soon as you research Fanaticism, I think it is, you can no longer produce these little guys - they are obsoleted with Paramanders who do not have the hurry production ability (they have the useless IMO Medic ability).

If you don't research Fanaticism, fine. But, if you happen to be going for an Altar victory, you are screwed. If you are playing the Elohim, no Corlindale.

IMO this is one case where obsoleting a unit really has some impact if you have ROK religion.

It would be great if the Paramanders retained the hurry production ability instead of getting that Medic ability.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Why? You can still take slavery if you have RoK. Yes, most people choose Arete. But it isn't as if you're required to choose Arete. So, if you want production hurryin units, you have a choice of slavery or a unit that'll soon be obsolete (Soldier of Kilmorph, which gets upgraded to Paramander).

And off topic...
Btw, why would good or neutral civs enjoy slavery anyway? They jus don't seem to favor it; only evil does. And RoK civs will be neutral most of the time, so maybe slaves aren't the best option for them.

 

[Sarisin]

Why? You can still take slavery if you have RoK. Yes, most people choose Arete. But it isn't as if you're required to choose Arete. So, if you want production hurryin units, you have a choice slavery or a unit that'll soon be obsolete. Btw, why would good or neutral civs enjoy slavery anyway? And RoK civs will be neutral most of the time.

Sorry, rock, you lost me with your comments there. You say to take Slavery instead of Arete (not a good idea IMO) so you can hurry production, and then you ask why they would enjoy slavery anyway. Huh?

Anyway, that is more or less my point - that instead of using Slaves it makes much more sense to have Soldiers of Kilmorph hurrying production rather than obsoleting them in favor of IMO the useless Paramander unit.

But, I guess you are right in that if you absolutely have to choose hurrying production, slaves would work. However, getting slaves certainly isn't as easy (what if you are not at war, and only 25% chance anyway) as building Soldiers of Kilmorph which are a sure thing in hurrying the production.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[wig]

Paramanders and Stygian Guard have another drawback; they can only obtain the City Raider I promotion, which make them less effective offensive troops than their forebearers (Soldiers of Kilmorph and Drowned, respectively). These are the only instances I've found that where I prefer the lower tier troop type in a tech path.

Normally when you have ROK religion you will not be able to get slaves - you will have the Arete civic. Still, ROK early on allows you to produce a unit that can hurry production, the Soldier of Kilmorph. They are great in speeding up wonder production especially.

However, as soon as you research Fanaticism, I think it is, you can no longer produce these little guys - they are obsoleted with Paramanders who do not have the hurry production ability (they have the useless IMO Medic ability).

If you don't research Fanaticism, fine. But, if you happen to be going for an Altar victory, you are screwed. If you are playing the Elohim, no Corlindale.

IMO this is one case where obsoleting a unit really has some impact if you have ROK religion.

It would be great if the Paramanders retained the hurry production ability instead of getting that Medic ability.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Sorry, rock, you lost me with your comments there. You say to take Slavery instead of Arete (not a good idea IMO) so you can hurry production, and then you ask why they would enjoy slavery anyway. Huh?

I'm sayin once you get Paramanders, then you'll obviously need slaves if you want to hurry production (which requires slavery over arete). (I'm also sayin neutral and good civ don't seem to favor slavery. It's only the evil civs [or OOs] who do. But that was beside the point. Sorry.)

AND nother thing to do once you get Paramanders...
You could jus join the Undercouncil and vote for the slave ring too. That'd allow you to buy slaves. I know spendin $$$ ain't the best idea for the Khazad, but slave ring does require you buy your slaves.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Paramanders and Stygian Guard have another drawback; they can only obtain the City Raider I promotion, which make them less effective offensive troops than their forebearers (Soldiers of Kilmorph and Drowned, respectively). These are the only instances I've found that where I prefer the lower tier troop type in a tech path.

Stygian Guards have been switched to being Melee units, so they can get al 3 city raider promotions. They also now start with water walking, but aren;t limited to coasts.

Paramanders of course are still disciple units, so they can't get CR 2 or 3. They also cannot be sacrificed for hammers like Soldiers of Kilmorph.

 

[wig]

Stygian Guards have been switched to being Melee units, so they can get al 3 city raider promotions. They also now start with water walking, but aren;t limited to coasts.

I didn't catch that change. Those changes alone will bump OO back to the top of my favorite religion list. Now I just need to find a way to get Saverous water walking

 

[MagisterCultuum]

In my version Saverous has water walking, Cultists do not, and a Speaker spell can give a temporary water walking promotion to the units in the caster's stack. However, no land unit can enter Oceans until Malevolent Designs.

 

[Sureshot]

i tend to find Gold-rushing is better than Soldiers of Kilmorph (too much micro), Slaves, and Pop-rushing

 

[rocklikeafool]

That's usually true. But when I play evil civs, which I do most of the time, I tend to have slavery goin durin wartime. It helps me rush wonders cuz I'm usually buildin this or that wonder while the troops are off crushin the enemy. (My armies tend to be small but very Elite. I tend to choose any civics that will give +2 xp to my troops. So, by late game, that's 10 xp with Form of the Titan, which I always build. Yes, I am warmonger! ) So, I find slaves really help with that.

Tho, I wish you could whip em or somethin to make em go 3 movement instead of 2. Huh, I think I'll put that in my modmod. I'll use use the spell mechanic to allow melee troops to do 'slavedrive' whenever there are slaves in the stack. Of course, the effect of it wears off when the melee unit or the slaves leave the stack. Naturally, the melee unit would gain 3 movement as well to make this more efficient.