Occupying a Civilization

Nothing needs to be remembered. You just click on the stack and choose which tank you want to go in to battle.

Why do I want to care about that choice ?

Besides the stack will already be ranked in descending order from the strongest to the weakest.

Why should I assume that this will necessarily be the case in Civ V ? Or indeed that it's the order I want it ranked in ?

Upgrades are a totally new unit that cost money. Promotions come from battle experience.

This is the way the mechanics work now, yes; I do not see why that's an argument that they have to work that way.
 
Why do I want to care about that choice ?

This feature is already in the game you idiot.

Why should I assume that this will necessarily be the case in Civ V ? Or indeed that it's the order I want it ranked in ?

Because it's already in Civ4. Perhaps a multitude of prioritized rankings.

This is the way the mechanics work now, yes; I do not see why that's an argument that they have to work that way.

What way do want them to work?
 
This feature is already in the game you idiot.

Let me rephrase; just because a feature is in Civ 4, why am I supposed to consider it a good idea ? If I am thinking of design notions for Civ 5, what I care about is whether my expereince in every version of Civ suggests it's workable and good, not whther it happens to be implemented in the most recent version.

Also, i'd appreciate a bit more

What way do want them to work?

I thought I'd just explained that a few posts back; if we must have promotions, Civ 3 is about as complex as makes sense to have them, and I would rather not have them at all; everything I have seen Civ IV promotions do that actually makes sense coudl to my mind be handled better with appropriate unit upgrades.
 
Let me rephrase; just because a feature is in Civ 4, why am I supposed to consider it a good idea ? If I am thinking of design notions for Civ 5, what I care about is whether my expereince in every version of Civ suggests it's workable and good, not whther it happens to be implemented in the most recent version.

Also, i'd appreciate a bit more
Um...if you take it out, people will be pissed off?
I thought I'd just explained that a few posts back; if we must have promotions, Civ 3 is about as complex as makes sense to have them, and I would rather not have them at all; everything I have seen Civ IV promotions do that actually makes sense coudl to my mind be handled better with appropriate unit upgrades.
Ok, I agree with you now. The 'promotion' system is really bad in civ4 (too tactical). The promotions (actually termed 'combat experience') in Civ3 is about as good as you can get.

That being said, I think special training is a good idea: When you build a unit in a city with a barracks, instead of automatically becoming a veteran (which makes no sense), you get to pick what the unit will specialize in. This specialization cannot be changed, and will remain untill the unit upgrades (where it is given a different one), or (obviously) it is destroyed.
 
That being said, I think special training is a good idea: When you build a unit in a city with a barracks, instead of automatically becoming a veteran (which makes no sense), you get to pick what the unit will specialize in. This specialization cannot be changed, and will remain untill the unit upgrades (where it is given a different one), or (obviously) it is destroyed.

How would this function any differently to the current promotion system?
 
Um...if you take it out, people will be pissed off?

I'm not sure it's possible to fix the things wrong with Civ 4 without taking some things out altogether.

That being said, I think special training is a good idea: When you build a unit in a city with a barracks, instead of automatically becoming a veteran (which makes no sense), you get to pick what the unit will specialize in. This specialization cannot be changed, and will remain untill the unit upgrades (where it is given a different one), or (obviously) it is destroyed.

Et tu... hang on, what declension is your username anyway ?

Unit specialisations feels like yet another tactical idea to me. Do Not Want.
 
To get the same depth of choice as we have with promotions, you would need hundreds if not thousands of possible units in the game. I'd love it if there was a command to select all units of the same type with the same promotion on a tile, but I'd rather remember the 40 or 50 base units and the ways to combine the 20 or 30 promotions than remember the 2000 possible units in the game.
 
To get the same depth of choice as we have with promotions, you would need hundreds if not thousands of possible units in the game.

How many of those combinations do you actually use ? How many have you a strategic need for ?

I have nothing against the notion of a game with a thousand different units, myself.
 
Um...if you take it out, people will be pissed off?
no matter what will be done to civ, some people will like the changes, others will not.

To get the same depth of choice as we have with promotions, you would need hundreds if not thousands of possible units in the game. I'd love it if there was a command to select all units of the same type with the same promotion on a tile, but I'd rather remember the 40 or 50 base units and the ways to combine the 20 or 30 promotions than remember the 2000 possible units in the game.
no
I have nothing against the notion of a game with a thousand different units, myself.
i do. actually 10 or so unit types per epoch will suffice.
 
Perhaps a guess of thousands of different units is a bit extreme. For most units, there are only really 4 or 5 paths. Perhaps it would be better to have 4 or 5 different types of each unit, for each of these possible paths, that can gain promotions based on that path. That would seem to be a compromise, decreasing the large range of promotions available to any one unit, whilst still allowing for variety.
 
How would this function any differently to the current promotion system?
You can only recieve it once. You cannot gain another by fighting more enemies.
I'm not sure it's possible to fix the things wrong with Civ 4 without taking some things out altogether.
I was talking about this:
Nothing needs to be remembered. You just click on the stack and choose which tank you want to go in to battle.
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Et tu... hang on, what declension is your username anyway ?
Just a name, a regular, non-plural, non-gender specific name.
How many of those combinations do you actually use ? How many have you a strategic need for ?
I wasn't talking about multiple promotions (I wasn't even talking about promotions at all). What I was saying was, when you build a unit in a city with a barracks, you get to choose one, and only one 'specialization' (mountain, pioneer, combat engineer, jungle, marine, etc.) for it. This specialization cannot be changed or removed, it is how the unit was trained. This way, you can have more diversity, not just infantry, infantry, infantry.
 
Perhaps it would be better to have 4 or 5 different types of each unit, for each of these possible paths, that can gain promotions based on that path.

how is this functionally different from there being 4 or 5 different units corresponding to the same base modified in the appropriate direction ?
 
How many of those combinations do you actually use ? How many have you a strategic need for ?

I have nothing against the notion of a game with a thousand different units, myself.

OK, here's a thought that combines a couple of notions I've seen in different mods (The Balancer and Rise and Rule) with a couple of other notions to put together a model for how lots of units might work late-game.

Posit quantitative resources.

Posit units that need different resources to build and use them up to different degrees.

What there could then be is one tech track of units that need one set of resources (for example, iron, rubber and oil.) If you have iron, rubber, and oil enough you can build tank-track units with it, and as you learn the appropriate techs you upgrade your tank-type units through a couple of generations of tank technology.

If you only have two of those resources, you can only build a different track of units - say, armoured cars. But you have good strategic reasons to build armoured cars even if you have the capacity to build tanks - maybe they're a lot cheaper and useful to bring with your tanks for cleaning up the leftover injured or weaker defenders in an enemy city. Maybe you need a different track again to build units with decent anti-aircraft defences in order not to have your force of tanks and armoured cars wiped off the face of the map by bombers. Maybe you want another different track to build units best suited for defending cities once you take them.

(It seems to me that most of the useful things promotions actually do are basically compensating for the way units in Civ 4 have only a single "strength" value; they are effectively allowing you to pump up "defence" specialist units with Combat and Ambush and "attack" units with Raider, Barrage and maybe Drill, no ? Which units where attack and defence values varied separately would not need to have.)

What that would give you would be a strategic landscape that varied depending on what resources you had available, what balance of forces you need, and on which resources you could take from your enemy when.

The other notion I like, which is in Rise and Rule in the earlier game, is stepped unit promotions. So you can build heavy horsemen; then a bit later you get the tech to build cataphracts, which are a slightly better cavalry-type unit; then slightly later again you get knights, and heavy horsemen upgrade to knights but cataphracts don't; and later again you get curiassiers, which cataphracts upgrade to, but knights don't. (I think I have all the steps along that path remembered in the right order; I may not, but it's the general concept rather than the details I am trying to convey here.) This is an interesting mechanism for the balance it requires you to judge between building new units and upgrading existing ones, which stnadard stepwise upgrade paths do not do.
 
Has anybody listened? My idea was to have only one type of the same unit, but just trained for different situations. This will make it much more simple than 4 or 5 of the same type that each have their own 'promotions' (a bad idea).
 
The idea of promotions is that they simulate training (you get them from exp., which you get from barracks, combat). So, what you're suggesting is just the current system regurgitated. Having different, yet similar units, would be a more accurate depiction.
 
No no no no no, I'm not talking about 'promotions', I'm talking about skills. The Civ3 system of conscript, regular, veteran, and elite is just fine how it is. In barracks, you train units for a specific skill. Combat experience should only go so far as moving the unit up through the promotions (regular, veteran, etc.).
 
If the promotion system is to be revamped then at least keep the 5 star strength promotions. This promotion is universal to all units and should therefore be kept. All others I can disregard but the strength is the most important.
 
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