Ocean tiles aren't productive enough

[autopsy-turvey]

Ocean tiles aren't productive enough and building cities with more than a couple in their radius limits growth and productivity in the same way putting a city in the middle of unworkable mountains would. You can mitigate the negative effects to some degree with lighthouses and ocean trade routes but the extra commerce from routes isnt enough to make up for getting 2 food from an ocean tile when any plains or grassland tile can get you 5 or 6 or even 7 food, any mine can get you 5 or 6 shields, and aristocracy can get you the same amount of commerce as a coast tile from any farm.

One solution could be having overlords civs transform ocean tiles inside their borders into more productive tile types over time as happens with forests under fellowship of leaves. call them eldricht fishing grounds or something and have them give a bonus food and shield, making transformed coastal squares more competative at 3 food 1 shield 2 commerce.

Something else that could help would be giving water magic a cumulative effect of creating more ocean resource specials like fish and crabs the same way earth magic does with metal specials now.

 

[Ahriman]

This is an interesting point; in vanilla civ there are fewer land tile boosters than in FFH - in particular, no agriculture civic.
But there are more sea tile boosters.

I could definitely see space in FFH for a late game tech(Astronomy?) giving +1 commerce to coast and ocean tiles, or providing a building that gives a +1 food or +1 hammer from coast/ocean tiles.

 

[Mailbox]

I think the lack of a "Colossus" and "Maoi Statues" really hurts the sea tiles themselves, although there are a lot of trade routes to give commerce. I do admit that I like that the routes give the commerce a coastal city needs because that's more how coastal cities without seafood work.

 

[autopsy-turvey]

This is an interesting point; in vanilla civ there are fewer land tile boosters than in FFH - in particular, no agriculture civic.
But there are more sea tile boosters.

I could definitely see space in FFH for a late game tech(Astronomy?) giving +1 commerce to coast and ocean tiles, or providing a building that gives a +1 food or +1 hammer from coast/ocean tiles.

Also the +1 farm boost from sanitation comes much earlier in ffh throwing the sea/farm balance off even further. It's not unusual to win bts games before even getting biology but you'd be hard pressed to do that in ffh.

There's other stuff that hobbles ocean tiles even further like unimproved fish tiles generally not being worth working compared to unimproved corn or rice tiles which can benefit you from turn 1 and ocean and lake tiles not even being workable until fishing which is usually a low priority tech. Given all this I could even see ocean tiles getting a straight up +1 food bonus from turn 1 which would be further improvable through stuff like lighthouses and maybe an ocean tech version of sanitation/biology.

 

[abculatter2]

Need I remind you of the Lanun?

 

[Mailbox]

Honestly, I'd prefer that the Lanun got extra coastal trade routes instead of extra food. They are excellent merchants after all.

 

[Fafnir13]

Excellent pirates.
I've had good luck with coastal cities built near fish, clame, et cetera. Other than that, not so good. Of course, not all of your cities are going to be using every tile around them. It's possible to support a city off of a few hills and farms, leaving the rest to specialists and the occasional oceanic tile for growth.
Still could use a boost. Something as ridiculously simple as +1 food from ocean with Message from the Deep researched. Or perhaps +1 food if OO is in the city. The game could use more passive benefits to having multiple religons.

 

[Ahriman]

Yeah, I just started playing a game as Lanun - even crazier because there are also some freshwater lakes around, which give 4food/3commerce unimproved with a lighthouse (Hannah). Anything that boosts sea tiles even just a little for regular civs is going to make the Lanun pretty sick.

Any boost to water tiles would have to cut back the tile yields on the Lanun pirate coves, which are really way too high.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Lanun are actually one of the strongest civs, now that Hannah gets 9/2/4 commerce/prod/food from a fully upgraded pirate port, +1 food for fresh water, +1 food for lighthouse. Giving them a Maoi statues would be incredibly powerful.

I still think the best solution is to make change the Pirate Cove improvement to the Cove improvement. Works exactly like it does now, requires fishing, and a work boat, except that we let everyone build them.

Then we only let the Lanun upgrade their Coves to Pirate harbor's and Pirate Ports, sorta like how the Kurio's can upgrade towns to Enclaves.

Outcome: Lanun are slightly weakened because other people get a taste for what they do. Everyone not Lanun can get additional commerce from coastal squares, making them more valuable.


A last side thought to this, is that we could make Coves work like Mines, in that per water mana (Or life mana maybe even) you have, there is a small chance that a cove will find something. Fish/Crab/Clams I don't think work, but maybe A cool ocean borne resources of some kind.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I really really miss the Moai Statues. the Colossus was great too, but I just loved those rocky faces turning an useless all-sea city into a worthwhile one if it would be a problem with the Lanun, just don't let them build it

 

[Arctic Circle]

If I get the python working I am planning on having the Triton (sea giant unit) being able to move fish recources for the Jotnar civ modmod for Fall Further.

 

[zup]

The problem is very simple: Everybody but Lanun get a maximum of 2 food for plain seawater. Lanun get 3. That's 50% more for you. Further, by default 1 pop eats 2 food. So while they will feed themselves and give you a few more commerce, the city will have to grow once more (which takes forever with +2 surplus for a 30+ city). And happiness cap is allways an issue until you research tons of future tech. Better just make it a specialist.

How about something this simple: Harbor also gives +1 food for water. And for Lanun too of course. They are only broken overpowered on archipelago maps.

 

[Breunor]

I think the 'balancer' is how lucrative trade routes are, especially overseas ones, in FfH.

We have buildings that increase trade routes, so on maps with a lot of sea those coastal cities can become economic powerhouses. This is especially important becuase there are no banks (with money changers and tax collectors equaling Markets and Grocers for money), but no equivalent to banks. Therefore, holding other things equal, inland cities produce less money. In contrast, we have Taverns, Inns, etc. If you increase the productivity of coastal cities they can become too important in the economy.

Best wishes,

Breunor