Of Mongols and Vikings...

[King Coltrane]

... and any other civs that need tweaks or merit discussion. i feel like this thread would be a good place to say a little about some ideas i have for some civs, UU's, UP's, UB's, and also a little about the games i played to bring me to those conclusions.

OK! lets start with the vikings. I had a blast playing as them in a recent game but found a few things that could be changed. First of all i would recommend that their starting date be moved slightly later, but give them civil service. They NEED to build berserkers otherwise they are doomed. From other games i have seen them confined (both in settlement and activity) to scandinavia. I want to see vikings with enough power (and therefore courage) to make their way to Kiev, Baghdad, Sicily, and anywhere else they would have reasons to be. I think two things would help this in addition to the start date thing i mentioned earlier. The problem here is that England is very powerful and is a serious barrier to viking movement. The first solution has to do with land units, the second with sea.

1: Berserkers should start with city raider 1. This is a HUGE help and i tried giving my berserkers this bonus and boy what a difference it made! instead of 29% chance of victory i had a 67% which is enough to win sometimes (IE not overly powerful) With this small bonus, the vikings can dare to capture or raze cities because they will have a chance of victory.

2: they need a longboat. I know that the nav.1 promotion from the trading post is nice, but come on... one bonus move vs. drill 1 AND 2?! its tough sinking 30 ships, since most of them will probably be english. The vikings need a ship that has the ability to move through sea or ocean or whatever (like in the civ3 version) but that also has maybe a +25% bonus vs triremes or something to combat england. It wont be game breaking, but it will give the vikings a chance.

One last thought on the vikings... maybe give their cities forges when they are built... think of Thor! and the saga of the Volsungs! forges were big to them...

 

[King Coltrane]

On to the Mongols. In the same game as before i switched to the mongols...cause i havent played them yet and i was curious. 1 word: March (promotion for keshiks). While i think it would be better if it came standard with the unit, it would be ok to give it as an effect of the Ger improvement, which is too expensive as it is. I would advise giving the Ger as a standard building for mongol cities that are founded, but if you want to build one in khanbaliq you would need to build it... anyway back to the march promotion. I was unable to conquer china... till 1330 (GRR) but the reason for this seems wrong for mongol history: i was forced to wait in my newly conquered city and heal my units enough to be able to conquer (or raze) the next. If i could have gotten a bit of healing while moving then i would have been able to move faster and would not been hampered as much. It also makes sense historically, since the mongols lived on horseback, so i could envision this as being a representation of such. I think the keshiks are fantastic and are VERY powerful (in a good way) but their one drawback/inaccuracy is their lack of speed. if this was fixed i think Mongolia would be fantastic and much more able to simulate history.

 

[KrakenRouge]

In terms of playability I doubt many player want to see these changes unless they are playing as the civilization in question.

Vikings usually destroy England, which I hardly see as a barrier, but as a laughable AI. In most of my games, the Vikings cause the destruction of England, which seriously ruins the playability factor in the Imperial age, when thanks the the Vikings, the Empire on which the sun never sets is never even in the game.

If anything, the Mongols and the Vikings are strong enough, and the burden of containing them does indeed fall on their beighbouring states. Which I dont currently see as a problem. Whats wrong with the Vikings staying in Scandanavia? I dont want to see Viking Baghdad, or Siciliy.

 

[Lord Apolon]

I've had a different experience with both of these civs. Like King Coltrane, I have never seen the Vikings expand beyond Scandinavia and sometimes Scotland, which they rarely hold forever. In fact, after several monarch games, I have never once seen them destroy England. Likewise for the Mongols. I find they rarely even attack China, let alone anyone else, or if they do they fail completely. They end up as a worthless power with a lot of land.. Siberian land.

So from my observations, both of these civs could use help. On a side note, I think that's the cool thing about this mod--that everyone sees different results every time. It's just strange that the previous poster has seen Vikings regularly destroy England, while I never have. (Balance nightmare?)

Anyway. I strongly support the idea of a longboat. I might suggest that it could traverse ocean, but could only hold military units (or only berserkers).. if that's possible. I think that would be enough of a bonus; presumably the vikings build barracks so they can give units city raider on their own.

I wouldn't mind seeing them start in, say, 700 (maybe a few turns before Spain) with Civil Service. But presumably the chosen date was chosen for a reason so I'd have to think about it more.

And I wouldn't mind seeing Viking Sicily because it really happened.


As for the Mongols.. I haven't played them much beyond the initial China rush, so I can't comment. But considering my experience, they should be strengthened in some way so they actually, y'know, attack somebody. Without me setting them to war with China in the WB.

 

[Phallus]

In fact, after several monarch games, I have never once seen them destroy England.

They're supposed to?

 

[King Coltrane]

well game changing things like complete conquest i see as sort of a variable thing, ie it doesnt happen every time but sometimes it does. What i am hoping for are a few changes that make wars more likely (as a lot of people i know would like) as well as provide some historical accuracy (though fun and gameplay always take the front burner) But to be honest, i think that it is important to give civs the balls to try out farfetched conquests and ventures. Rome, egypt, and germany RARELY have any trouble going to war because they have the muscle to back up a declaration. We need to reduce the fear factor for some of these civs so that they have the option of greatness and empire if they want, or not if they dont.

 

[Mercenary82]

I think the main thing the Mongols need to help them out is the Silk Road. Not having this road already in place when they spawn seriously slows down Mongol expansion into central Asia. Perhaps it could be coded to auto-spawn the silk road at a certain date?

 

[KrakenRouge]

I think the main thing the Mongols need to help them out is the Silk Road. Not having this road already in place when they spawn seriously slows down Mongol expansion into central Asia. Perhaps it could be coded to auto-spawn the silk road at a certain date?

I like this idea if it were implemented alongside maybe a hostile India AI to China. That way if China wants to trade with the outside powers to the West, it cant do so independantly until Astronomy, giving the Chinese player more of a reason to declare war on the Mongols in the Silk Road.

And about the previous posts, I had no idea that the game goes off on such strange variables, I swear, every time I have England spawn they get destroyed by the Vikings. And then Japan and India are extremely hostile towards each other, and by the late game, India and everyone else are at war, somehow AI hatred of India is a feature that mostly always comes up in my game with the AI.

Wierd

 

[Hitti-Litti]

King Coltrane, there's an easy solution for beating Drill-ships. Give Vikings FlankingII.

 

[Magma]

King Coltrane, there's an easy solution for beating Drill-ships. Give Vikings FlankingII.

I would rather see England's UP as drill on archery units untill around 1500-1600 when it will be the same as it is now(Drill on ships); that would imo solve the ship problem and give the englishmen a little better chance to defend themselves.

 

[King Coltrane]

The thing that is complicated about giving a UP to England is how varied its history has been. I mean England should use mostly macemen and swordsmen when they spawn to be historically accurate, with their civ closely resembling the vikings (think anglo-saxon and then norman england) afterwards though their longbows were indeed powerful and would warrant the drill promotions, like Magma said. But then later i would argue that their Navy circa 1700-1900 should get the drill promotions. But honestly, i wouldnt mind giving both the ships and the longbows the drill promotions for ease of programming as both have merit.

As for the Silk Road i think insread of a 'road' spawning, we need a few (maybe 2 at the most) cities spawning as independent kingdoms pretty early (ill explain why in a sec). These cities would develop (maybe give them a worker at the start though too) and would build the roads themselves and would therefore create the silk road by themselves. The reason i would put these cities in pretty early (before 200 BC) is that China too had expeditions in this part of central asia under the Han and later Tang dynasties. Just because we know the silk road primarily in terms of the turn of the millenia and the following centuries does not mean that this area was not important prior to this. In fact this area was fertile enough to support rich cities and complex irrigation systems; it was only after the mongols (and especially Timur later) that this whole area lost its fertility due to such constant warfare. anyway yeah silk road = good idea haha

 

[Mercenary82]

You have a good point about the silk road, as I have just seen an example of this in my last game as the Mongols. What happened was that barbs managed to take China out, capturing Beijing, also capturing Samarkand from Persia. By the time I spawned, barb workers completed the silk road. This almost never happens though, unfortunatley.

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

You have a good point about the silk road, as I have just seen an example of this in my last game as the Mongols. What happened was that barbs managed to take China out, capturing Beijing, also capturing Samarkand from Persia. By the time I spawned, barb workers completed the silk road. This almost never happens though, unfortunatley.

Great idea
Those cities could be samarkand, kashgar, and maybe khotan. I also think almaliq should be a independent or barbarian spawn.

 

[Mercenary82]

I think they all need to be barb, so the workers building the Silk Road don't get destroyed by horse archers.

 

[Guest01]

it was only after the mongols (and especially Timur later) that this whole area lost its fertility due to such constant warfare. anyway yeah silk road = good idea haha

Seems very strange for me that land lost its fertility due to warfare... More likely that MWP came to an end. Although, it is true that prolonged periods of political and infrastructural growth tends to cause decline in population and thus must be preceded by population boom. That’s seems exactly the case of Mongols and Vikings: favorable climate conditions allowed strong population growth that in turn allowed buildup of strong military. Is it possible to simulate MWP in mod?

 

[SkippyT]

They're supposed to [destroy England]?

They did just that in history.

 

[Phallus]

They helped create England. They did anything but destroy it.

 

[Hitti-Litti]

They destroyed the realm called England and re-created it. It was a violent coup.

 

[Tom Veil]

I like this idea if it were implemented alongside maybe a hostile India AI to China.

Until after WWII, India was not so much hostile towards China as it was uninterested. The Himalayas and the forbidding Burmese jungles served as quite the effective barrier in real life as in Civ.

 

[Magma]

They destroyed the realm called England and re-created it. It was a violent coup.

Hey they attacked first