Of Rioting & Rebellion

[rysingsun]

say its late in the game. you have your 150 cities. you have war weariness or maybe you are drafting from those high corruption cities and disbanding to get free shields. youve got some happiness issues going on right? now on any given turn you have 150 cities that *might* grow and any city that grows might riot. but you dont really care because most of the cities that might riot are the corrupt ones anyway. you dont like the auto-governer for whatever reason and you want to excercise your right to not have to scroll through 150 cities at the end of each turn. so you put up with a couple riots per turn. no big deal right?

along comes a rule that says any city that riots might revolt. ok now THIS is going to be a pain. this means that every turn i must scroll through all my cities to be sure they are not going to riot. ugh!

hence the alternative. allow war weariness to cause a small chance each turn that any given city will revolt. perhaps the chances are less if the city has low corruption. most importantly a small change in the happiness of a particular city has a small corresponding change in the probability of it revolting. hence micromanaging to add a happiness point here and there within the empire will have a only a small effect on the typical rate at which cities are lost to revolt and the person who is too lazy to do it will only suffer moderately for that choice. the REAL trick to managing revolts would then come through managing war weariness which is no longer a micromanaging issue. a person who really needs to bring a war to proper conclusion and is willing to tolerate a lot of weariness to do so will simply live with the tradeoff between revolts and "finishing that war". a person who must finish a lengthy war and who cannot tolerate revolts may just bite the bullet and set the happiness slider up to 80 percent.

but please dont make me check every single city every single turn to prevent revolts

 

[rhialto]

Mostly, this is a civ3 interface issue. With teh civ2 happiness advisor, you could quickly scroll through your list of cities, and any city due to riot NEXT TURN would be highlighted in red. This would be updated if you edit (entertainers, luxuries etc) the city so it wont riot next turn.

Contrast it with the civ3 city advisor, where the nearest thing you have is cities that were rioting at teh start of this turn get a fire/smoke overlay, and a list of content and happy citizens (not the unhappy ones). There is no way at a glance to see all your due-to-riot cities in civ3.

 

[Neomega]

Oh, puh-LEEZ! I suppose you'd be in favor of keeping it immune to Propaganda, as well, since everyone knows that nobody could possibly wish to leave such a wholesome, benign government. If anything, they'd be more likely to split, since they're supposed to be represented.

In democracy, the majority rules. Revolting would be suicide, since by definition you would be outnumbered to start with. BTW, in the game, Democracies are immune to propaganda.

But I really don't care. If this system were implemented, and the designers decided Democracies could have revolts, I wouldn't care, it was just an example of modifiers. I quit the off-topic forums.

but please dont make me check every single city every single turn to prevent revolts

well, if this is in response ot my idea, the chance for revolution would only come after an insurgency had happened... maybe 2 or 3 times... so you would know it's a hot bed of resistance, as they say of Fallujah. (which has a history of fighting any armies, including Saddams)


Even then, on the fourth time, a revolt may happen, and revolts I would say could have as many units as citizens, so the first revolt would be only 3 citizens, who turn to 3 partisans, and battle your occupiers. You probably would easily win, and that revolt could possibly even effect the chance modifier, since the brutal oppression of the Shi'ites showed the rest of the city who is boss, maybe even the rest of Iraq...

Once again, actual control would be an illusion, the best you could do would be trying to reduce all cities to 1%, and all severities to minimal, which would be impossible, especially in newly conquered cities in your empire, you could make the situation as good as possible, doesn't mean you'll avoid IED's blowing up your hum-vees. I suspect most players would accept the occasional demonstration or strike, and many would adjust cities as they finished building, as opposed to going around every turn and trying to keep everything at 1%... (or .1%, whatever)

BTW, if you have a massive empire, you might as well accept there will be a revolt or two every couple of decades.

 

[MeatWad]

In democracy, the majority rules. Revolting would be suicide, since by definition you would be outnumbered to start with. BTW, in the game, Democracies are immune to propaganda.

In true democracy, yes. This sham of a government we have in the U.S. is NOT a democracy by any means. In these trying times and especially during a presidential election, all I freakin' SEE is propaganda, and from the number of people that have been and can be swayed by it, I think propagnda should be able to effect ANY government. In a democracy, it just comes from the inside.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, I have discussed this elsewhere, but I reckon I have a model which could work in civ4. It works like this:

1) Get rid of 'Pop heads'. They served their purpose in earlier games, but don't work now that you have conscription, collateral damage and plagues!! Also, they make MM too easy!! Instead, institute a REAL population and population growth model!

2) With 'Pop heads' gone, a new ' city mood' system would be needed! One based on a 0-100% scale would work best, IMHO!

3) The player would not be able to see the '% mood' of a city, only a descriptor of the current '% mood'. eg, a city on 8% mood might be described as 'Rebellious', wheras one around 36% might be considered 'Angry'. On the positive end of the ledger, a 66% mood might be considered Very Happy, whilst an 86% mood might be described as Loyal.

4) 45-55% Mood would be considered content. As mood slips below 45%, the city's productivity and wealth begin to drop. Also, as mood declines, other negative events have a chance of happening: from damage to units and/or improvements in that city; a chance of that city breaking away and, at worst, the chance of the city spawning guerillas!

5) As mood grows beyond 55%, your people become more productive and wealthy, and you also get other positive benefits, such as commerce boosts, better chances of producing great leaders and of getting a 'population boom' from immigration and/or increased birth rates.

6) Things which make people unhappy would be war weariness, atrocities, pollution, high crime/corruption, low 'relative' culture, overcrowding, broad 'social engineering' factors and government choices-to name just a few.

7) Things which make people happy are High wealth, luxuries, military units in the city, government choices, religious and entertainment buildings/specialists, low crime/corruption, high culture, 'high morality', broad 'social engineering' factors and low population to city size ratio ('undercrowding' !).

8) Each city's mood contributes to a national mood, and each city mood can be broken down by 'demographics'. eg, the workers in a city might be VERY HAPPY, wheras your religious groups might only be 'Content'. This works at a national level as well!

9) Demographic mood, at both a city and national level can influence the nature of positive/negative events which occur as a direct result of mood. eg. If your workers are v. unhappy in a city, then there is a chance that they will go 'on strike', significantly reducing your shield output. If this occured on the national level, then you would have a 'national strike' on your hands.

The important aspect of the model I have presented is that, though it allows latitude for mood management, it makes it VERY difficult to micromanage successfully! For instance, in civ now, the best way to improve happiness is to adjust your luxury slider. In my system, though, overreliance on luxuries can lead to increased crime/corruption which, in turn, can adjust mood downwards! You can increase a city's entertainer specialisation, but this will reduce your shield/food output AND cost you money! Also, increasing the happiness of one social group in a city may come at the cost of another groups happiness-you just have to try and balance off the complex and often competing interests, something a micromanager would find hard to accomplish within my model!
Anyway, any thoughts? I'd love to hear them !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Jon Shafer]

You should play CTP2, it sounds right up your alley.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

But Trip, I don't WANT to play CTP2!! I want to play Civ4 with some of the BETTER elements of ctp2 incorporated into it! Also, judging from your earlier message on this matter, you don't sound particularly happy with the current happiness/unhappiness model, and I DEFINITELY feel that my model addresses the two main concerns you raised! In particular that the drop off in productivity is much more gradual AND the fact that it is less easy to micromanage citizens mood!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Well, I can tell you this - population heads aren't going anywhere. That's a Civ staple and something most people think of as "good micromanagement" (i.e. being able to determine yourself what YOU want to produce in each city). The departure from that system has gotten praise from CTP fans and grumbles from Civ fans.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

You know, I don't think I can agree with your prognosis Trip! Some Firaxis people have already alluded to wholesale changes to the whole mood/rioting system, which would probably suggest changes to those elements which feed into it-like Pop Heads! Also, certain civ2 'staples' (both good and bad) were lost in the transition from civ2 to civ3 and, though there was grumbling, the game has been successful! The things I'm hearing suggest an even GREATER change between civ3 and civ4! IMHO, these changes are neccessary in order to both sustain and expand the franchises fan base, in spite of the grumblings of 'purists' ! Personally, though, the whole pop-head system is one of the most broken elements of the game, as it truly detracts from the otherwise 'immersive' nature of the game!! Of course, if the whole 'staple' mentalility had infected, say, the computer and car industries, then we might still be driving around in model-T fords and using ZX computers !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Jon Shafer]

There are easy ways to revamp the rioting system without tossing out one of the most important Civ staples. Pop heads are fundamental to the Civ design. Civ has shed some things over time but these guys are so important that they're something I really don't see being dropped.

Those comments by Soren were made 2 years before release. I don't think people realize how much things can change over 2 years of the development process. That is why Firaxis isn't releasing any more specific details - because things aren't concrete yet. Things can change wildly during development. Nobody but the people involved with the game right now can say what the game has been or will end up being.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well I'm sorry but, for my part, retention of the crappy 'pop-heads' model could be a 'make or break feature' for me! In that I might leave it on the shelf if they don't improve the population model! Remember, just because something is a 'staple', doesn't mean that it is GOOD! For too long Population heads, like ICS, have been exploited by players who don't want a genuine challenge, but who instead simply desire to win 'at all costs!!!'
Finally, the comments regarding rioting were made earlier this year, and were what sparked the initial speculation about Civ4 coming out!!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Jon Shafer]

How have pop heads been exploited?

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK, perhaps exploit isn't the best word for it, but it certainly removes the bulk of the challenge of 'managing' the population! For instance, under the current system, you can see that 1 of your 'pop-heads' is angry-solution? Simply create entertainer heads and your problem is SOLVED!!! No challenge AT ALL ! A micromanager is automatically at an advantage because they so frequently check their cities for such things, and eliminate any unhappiness before it can turn into rioting! IMHO that is a SORT of exploit of the system! In MY system OTOH, a MM can look at a city and see that the population is 'content', but he won't know HOW content!!! Better still, he can try and make them happy, but his efforts may have unforseen, negative consequences down the track-hence the MM exploit is not entirely eliminated, but pretty much closed!! Also, population heads are an unrealistic method for simulating the city's population, especially now that population can fluctuate so much, due to disease, conscription and collateral damage. My population model elminates these problems, pretty much, but can still give the player the pop info they need at a glance! Lastly, it is pretty hard to for someone who is unfamiliar with a city to determine the exact population of said city, yet an enemy can do so in Civ2 and 3, because the info is right there under the city!!! Instead, that number should represent the city's SIZE, which might give a rough indication of that cities population, but not the exact number of people in there!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Risbinroch]

Many good ideas here. Another: what if when you change government, for instance from republick to Fascism/Communism or whatever, there is a possibility that some of your cities won't follow and revolt?

So if you are a Communist Civilization after the government change, a couple of your cities has revolted and declared themselves independent and with another name: Democratic England, you then get the Name: Communist England...

Also throughout times there should by immigration etc, so that population change, and that can cause unrest and revolts in the future aswell. If a neighbor of you is having hard times with food/work etc, it's not unormal that people move across the border...

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I dont see problems with popheads. I mean shields, corn, commerce, tiles, everything measured in discrete values, as is pop. How would bigger numbers improve gameplay? You would have to GUESS what actions to take to make people happy? MM is not an exploit but a gameplay failure and a nuisance, you should be able to manage things on an empirelevel not a city level to improve that. Dont make things more complicated but easier to manage, imho.