If a valid instruction shows up to move worker 1N and immediately stop, I will of course play it that way. 
However this would waste 2 worker moves.
However this would waste 2 worker moves.
Office of Expansion-Official Settlement Discussion #1
- Thread starter snipelfritz
- Start date
DaveShack said:If a valid instruction shows up to move worker 1N and immediately stop, I will of course play it that way.
However this would waste 2 worker moves.
And being this is emperor level, that could cost us a vital city or two. Who knows how close the AI is.
MOTH
Emperor
By my count the opinions expressed are split just about evenly. I think Snipelfritz is going to have to poll this.
I would just like to offer a final arguement:
Ask any of the top players, Food is Power. The early game is critical for establishing the power of your empire by expanding as quickly as possible.
If we move SE, we can have 3 settlers by turn 53 and one every 6 turns after that if we move our settler and irrigate both Wines.
If we settle in place, we can have 3 settlers by turn 58 and one every 8 turns after that as we will only have one irrigated Wine.
Moving SE is a stronger start due to the +4 food per turn instead of +3.
I would just like to offer a final arguement:
Ask any of the top players, Food is Power. The early game is critical for establishing the power of your empire by expanding as quickly as possible.
If we move SE, we can have 3 settlers by turn 53 and one every 6 turns after that if we move our settler and irrigate both Wines.
If we settle in place, we can have 3 settlers by turn 58 and one every 8 turns after that as we will only have one irrigated Wine.
Moving SE is a stronger start due to the +4 food per turn instead of +3.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
MOTH, did you calculate in the need for early gold (we got one more gold by settling by river), the value of aqueduct long term, military defense bonus for riverine positions and its inherent economic value, long term flexibility of tileusage inland and the fact that we need to cover the map as soon as possible with scouts?
The + 4 per turn will become +3 due to Despotism, compared to +2 per turn.
I am also unsure about the time spent working the tiles, if that is accounted for, or if he counted 4 food from turn 1 (it is indeed 3 food, not 4).
So deduct the time spent for irrigating in turns, deduct the extra gold from the research speed lost, count in that we lose out several inland tiles, recognize the economic value of + 25 % river defense for limiting military police.
We will probably be stuck with Camelot as Capital for a long while, so we better make it a combined city, and not a sheer settler factory.
The + 4 per turn will become +3 due to Despotism, compared to +2 per turn.
I am also unsure about the time spent working the tiles, if that is accounted for, or if he counted 4 food from turn 1 (it is indeed 3 food, not 4).
So deduct the time spent for irrigating in turns, deduct the extra gold from the research speed lost, count in that we lose out several inland tiles, recognize the economic value of + 25 % river defense for limiting military police.
We will probably be stuck with Camelot as Capital for a long while, so we better make it a combined city, and not a sheer settler factory.
snipelfritz
Crazy about the Demogame
There is no doubt that I will poll this. I'm just waiting for discussion to die down. I probably will poll this some time tomorrow, Saturday March 5th. Here's my options so far:
1.Settle on the spot
2.Settle one tile east
3.Settle one tile south east
4.Other(please specify)
5.Request worker move 1 tile north
6.Abstain
Feel free to comment on these options.
1.Settle on the spot
2.Settle one tile east
3.Settle one tile south east
4.Other(please specify)
5.Request worker move 1 tile north
6.Abstain
Feel free to comment on these options.
MOTH
Emperor
Hi Provolution,
I'm not sure you are understanding about the Food Bonus. Each of the Wine tile can get +3 Net food when Irrigated, which results in the total of +4 once hey are irrigated.
Short Answer: Yes, all that you mention is accounted for.
Long Answer: mnemonics: IP = In Place; SE = 1 Tile SE
Gold: Remember that the despot penalty will apply so that Wine+River+Road will only get 2 gold. The city center will get 3 or 4 (I'll use 4) due to the SeaFaring bonus.
The break even point is turn 34 at which point SE is getting 2 more GPT. The largest deficit is 15 net gold on turn 23.
Worker turns: Are more efficient for SE as worker doesn't have to move to start. Also, Irrigation goes quicker than Mining.
Inland tiles are not lost - they will be used by other cities. If we don't move SE some of the Coast and Sea tiles will never be used as another city cannot be placed to use them.
River Defense - I don't count at all, as we should never be attacked.
I'm not sure you are understanding about the Food Bonus. Each of the Wine tile can get +3 Net food when Irrigated, which results in the total of +4 once hey are irrigated.
Short Answer: Yes, all that you mention is accounted for.
Long Answer: mnemonics: IP = In Place; SE = 1 Tile SE
Gold: Remember that the despot penalty will apply so that Wine+River+Road will only get 2 gold. The city center will get 3 or 4 (I'll use 4) due to the SeaFaring bonus.
The break even point is turn 34 at which point SE is getting 2 more GPT. The largest deficit is 15 net gold on turn 23.
Worker turns: Are more efficient for SE as worker doesn't have to move to start. Also, Irrigation goes quicker than Mining.
Inland tiles are not lost - they will be used by other cities. If we don't move SE some of the Coast and Sea tiles will never be used as another city cannot be placed to use them.
River Defense - I don't count at all, as we should never be attacked.
Donovan Zoi
The Return
MOTH said:
Why anyone would move away from the river is beyond me. With no free Aqueduct, it will cost us in the long run. We can enlist our second city to become a Settler factory.
Vote on the spot, the only sound solution.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I agree with DZ here, I am 55-45 % for the Spot. I know it is a close call, but strategic location also means we get to be one move closer to the piece of action. If we go farther south, the settlers would have to travel on tile longer than needed.
RegentMan
Deity
After reading through the thread, and going against my usual build on rivers, I must join with the crowd and say move the settler SE.
Where would you find another settler factory? If there is no food bonus around us that is in close enough range so corruption isn't a problem, then not moving the settler would be the biggest mistake. It is a huge risk relying on the fog of war to give us another settler factory.
Black_Hole
Deity
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 3,424
Build on the Spot!
If the orginal spot is atleast good, than it is a waste to move
If the orginal spot is atleast good, than it is a waste to move
GoodGame
Red, White, & Blue, baby!
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2004
- Messages
- 13,725
This is my phantasy location, but I fear that it really is just tundra.
I recommend moving 1 West (the forest) and see what's seen.
I think we shouldn't settle on forest, but cut it down to speed up the Granary. I bet we'll end up settling on the river bonus grass to the N, but lets look around a turn or 2.
I recommend moving 1 West (the forest) and see what's seen.
I think we shouldn't settle on forest, but cut it down to speed up the Granary. I bet we'll end up settling on the river bonus grass to the N, but lets look around a turn or 2.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
We don't lose it, we get it right away. I am all for Spot.
You get it right away and lose 1 food, rather than waiting 7 turns and gaining them and 1 food. Obviously the latter is the better deal.
Donovan Zoi
The Return
Ginger_Ale said:
And won't it be a shame to waste all that food unless we stop and build an Aqueduct that we could have had for free? When a river settlement opportunity presents itself on the first turn, you don't move away from it.
Donovan Zoi said:
Ah, goody, an argument.
It's better for the long run DZ - in fact, we won't even need an aqueduct in this city for a while, because if we move off the wines and irrigate them, we'll have a settler factory at size 4 and 5 that won't need to grow past size 6 for a while.
There are some times you do need to move off a river; this is one of them.
What this argument really is, is: Settler Factory vs. No Settler Factory. I think the choice is obvious.
edit: Also, snipelfritz, can you poll these options fairly soon? It'll make my job putting build queues and laborer allocations together easier, as I know what tile we will settle on.
RegentMan
Deity
...unless a better opportunity presents itself. Moving off of the river loses us the free aqueduct, but we get the food high tiles. That means we can utilize the shield high tiles around our start that much earlier. Plus it's on the coast. This'll be a power city once the aqueduct is built.Donovan Zoi said:
Also, like Ginger Ale said, we won't need an aqueduct for a while, as it will be a settler factory.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Settle on spot gives us
25 % defense bonus (More defensive value per unit for free)
Free Aqueduct
1 turn production
1 tile closer to the expansion area (1 turn production saved due to move per new city)
1 tile less of corrupting distance from the center (Capital location)
Tile usage flexibility
Access to more forest for rushing builds
More Shields
optimal coverage of tile resources
Effective use of production capacity
faster early technology development
Quicker exploration and expansion in critical phase
We do not know if this is an island, a continent or Pangea
Better overall tile-usage to the rest of the land
Scaleability of city and long term growth
Our very first city should be strong
Allows for quicker migration to wonder builds
What we forsake
1 food production per turn after 7 turns
25 % defense bonus (More defensive value per unit for free)
Free Aqueduct
1 turn production
1 tile closer to the expansion area (1 turn production saved due to move per new city)
1 tile less of corrupting distance from the center (Capital location)
Tile usage flexibility
Access to more forest for rushing builds
More Shields
optimal coverage of tile resources
Effective use of production capacity
faster early technology development
Quicker exploration and expansion in critical phase
We do not know if this is an island, a continent or Pangea
Better overall tile-usage to the rest of the land
Scaleability of city and long term growth
Our very first city should be strong
Allows for quicker migration to wonder builds
What we forsake
1 food production per turn after 7 turns
