Office of the Judiciary - Term 5

[donsig]

I'm not sure if I should ask for a judicial review or an investigation but I would like the Judicial Department to look into the matter of the dual appointments make for Chief Justice.
I assumed presidential powers in Chieftess's absence and appointed Chiefpaco as Chief Justice. Chieftess returned at about the same time. I have not figured out if she was back before or after I made the appointment. She also made an appointment to Chief justice. I am hoping that the Judicial Department can make a ruling as to which appointment (if either) is valid.

 

[Shaitan]

I think it's easier than it looks. Donsig's appointment wasn't confirmed by the Council so Chiefpaco wasn't in office when Chieftess made her appointment.

 

[Shaitan]

Although to the untrained eye it does look improper for the investigated to appoint a justice who could concievably affect the outcome of his case, the specifics of this action counter that impression. We may have some conflicts from time to time but I have absolutely total confidence that donis will always carry out the duties of his office in a fair manner with the benefit of Phoenatica as the ultimate goal in each decision. Additionally, in this case, his choice was identical to what I was going to suggest.

Not that this matters now with Chieftess back, I guess. Still, it needed saying.

 

[disorganizer]

I would like a judical review of the following point:

If we use the provinces as they are now, we will propably end up with 1 governor for a long time.
With this, the senate will be a one-man-show for very long.
This will make misuse of the senates position possible and can not be in the sense of the constitution imho.
Whats the judges' view about it?

 

[disorganizer]

the delphi files:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29882

 

[Eklektikos]

Public Defender's Review

Chain of Command
I agree completely with Bill_in_PDX that regardless of his/her embroilment in a PI, the VP would still take over in the event of the president's absence from the moral standpoint of "innocent until proven guilty", from the precendent of Donsig's previous PIs during which he constitutionally retained the full powers of his presidency, and also from the fact that if a PI were to automatically remove officials from power until resolution it would become possible to stage a temporary coup d'etat by requesting PIs of those above one in the CoC.
Thus it is neither constitutional nor desireable that the presidency should not pass to Donsig in Chieftess' absence.

Current President

Chieftess - for the reasons given above by Bill_in_PDX. I do not believe I have anything to add to his analysis of the situation.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by donsig
I'm not sure if I should ask for a judicial review or an investigation but I would like the Judicial Department to look into the matter of the dual appointments make for Chief Justice.
I assumed presidential powers in Chieftess's absence and appointed Chiefpaco as Chief Justice. Chieftess returned at about the same time. I have not figured out if she was back before or after I made the appointment. She also made an appointment to Chief justice. I am hoping that the Judicial Department can make a ruling as to which appointment (if either) is valid.

Will someone please tell me what I must do to get this looked at? If Chieftess was really absent then my assumption of the presidential powers was legal and appropriate. That should mean that my appointment must be dealt with. At the very least we need a judicial clarification in case this kind of situation ever arises again.

 

[disorganizer]

I would propose ammending the law to exclude the suspect from being able to appoint any judical member as long as he is under pi. ;-) even if he/she takes over the coc, he will be skipped.

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by donsig


Will someone please tell me what I must do to get this looked at? If Chieftess was really absent then my assumption of the presidential powers was legal and appropriate. That should mean that my appointment must be dealt with. At the very least we need a judicial clarification in case this kind of situation ever arises again.

I'd like to see an official review as well. It's entirely possible that this could happen again (heck, it happened once, didn't it?).

My opinion (as a common citizen, of course) is that donsig's appointment was totally legal and if it had been ratified, chiefpaco would now be the Chief Justice. Since he was not confirmed and we have always used a "last word wins" approach, Chieftess' appointment is fully legal and her candidate will be Chief Justice once he is confirmed by the Council.

There is secondary problem with Chieftess' selection though. Neither Bill nor Eklektikos can be removed from their offices without their consent. To be more precise, they could indeed be appointed to a vacant office but could then remove themselves from that office if they wished, in order to satisfy the 1 Leader Position Only rule. In any case, the Public Defendant office is not vacant until Eklektikos vacates it.

Ugly little mess, isn't it?

 

[Cyc]

Quoting Shaitan:
There is secondary problem with Chieftess' selection though. Neither Bill nor Eklektikos can be removed from their offices without their consent.

Now that was out of left field...They hold elected positions and can be removed from office just like any other elected office. Where did you come up with that?

 

[Eklektikos]

Well, we can be removed but only via PI & impeachment. Trying to reassign us to another office against our will is another matter.

 

[Chieftess]

Originally posted by Shaitan

There is secondary problem with Chieftess' selection though. Neither Bill nor Eklektikos can be removed from their offices without their consent. To be more precise, they could indeed be appointed to a vacant office but could then remove themselves from that office if they wished, in order to satisfy the 1 Leader Position Only rule. In any case, the Public Defendant office is not vacant until Eklektikos vacates it.

Ugly little mess, isn't it?

*sigh*
Will i ever understand your constitution?

Here we go again.. new thread...

 

[Shaitan]

@Cyc - My statement was in the context of appointments. I didn't mean to imply that they could NEVER be removed.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by donsig


Will someone please tell me what I must do to get this looked at? If Chieftess was really absent then my assumption of the presidential powers was legal and appropriate. That should mean that my appointment must be dealt with. At the very least we need a judicial clarification in case this kind of situation ever arises again.

Jeez! Can't a guy get some sleep!

My opinion is that when Chieftess returned and nominated her candidate, that she should have also withdrawn your nomination of chiefpaco. donsig is right though, this should be addressed publically.

In other words, the nomination is for the President to make. Since donsig's candidate was not confirmed into office, then I feel the President can change who the nominee is.

Now, in theory, were chiefpaco confirmed by the cabinet vote, then clearly he would be Chief Justice, and CT's return would have no bearing on that, nor would she have the right to remove him at will.

My recommendation is that Chieftess withdraw the Presidential nomination of chiefpaco, and continue with the process of her nomination.

Bill
Judge Advocate with tired fingers

 

[Eklektikos]

My opinion is that when Chieftess returned and nominated her candidate, that she should have also withdrawn your nomination of chiefpaco. donsig is right though, this should be addressed publically.

In other words, the nomination is for the President to make. Since donsig's candidate was not confirmed into office, then I feel the President can change who the nominee is.

Now, in theory, were chiefpaco confirmed by the cabinet vote, then clearly he would be Chief Justice, and CT's return would have no bearing on that, nor would she have the right to remove him at will.

My recommendation is that Chieftess withdraw the Presidential nomination of chiefpaco, and continue with the process of her nomination.

Ditto.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Or, CT might consider nominating chiefpaco herself. This Judiciary Member would welcome his presence on the bench.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by disorganizer
I would like a judical review of the following point:

If we use the provinces as they are now, we will propably end up with 1 governor for a long time.
With this, the senate will be a one-man-show for very long.
This will make misuse of the senates position possible and can not be in the sense of the constitution imho.
Whats the judges' view about it?

My view is that there is nothing to review.

We have the law in place, you are welcome to try to change it via normal channels and proceedures.

As for misuse of power, many times that is in the eye of the beholder, but we have more than ample experience at stringing up our leaders via PI, so I feel adequate protection exists.

Bill
Judge Advocate

 

[Eklektikos]

Originally posted by disorganizer
I would like a judical review of the following point:

If we use the provinces as they are now, we will propably end up with 1 governor for a long time.
With this, the senate will be a one-man-show for very long.
This will make misuse of the senates position possible and can not be in the sense of the constitution imho.
Whats the judges' view about it?

As Bill says, not really a matter for judicial review. If it concerns you, start a discussion about it in the citizen's forum and I'll be happy to post my views on the matter as a plain citizen

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX

Jeez! Can't a guy get some sleep!

Bill
Judge Advocate with tired fingers

I forgot Shaitan isn't Chief Justice anymore. He seems to always be on-line and I have gotten spoiled with his swift replies.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by donsig


I forgot Shaitan isn't Chief Justice anymore. He seems to always be on-line and I have gotten spoiled with his swift replies.

That's okay, get me an autographed t-shirt (the PI6 model) and all is forgiven...