[BTS] Old player leveling up (starting with Monarch)

[Anysense]

I think 1SW is the only real alternative to SIP. You don't want to miss that gold, so not much choice. I don't think much about crabs though. They just 1 better than a farmed flood plain, and 30 is a great deal at this point. I would move scout on the gold to see whether its worth moving inland, SIP unless there is another gold or food and research AH. And build worker, of course.

Spoiler open only if you already moved your scout :

If you settle 1SW, there will be 10 FP in bfc = -4, definitely SIP (only 9 FP and -3).

 

[elmurcis]

Gold and 9 FP in BFC if SIP - perfect (9*0.4=3.6->3 unhealth from it). No Fishing and Crab early (propably until tech trading) but I like limited area coast (for access to harbors some day with that many FP ) AH (also for Horses location) 1st... anything else from Normal speed players

 

[isomittari]

So much good advice, thank you! No Fishing makes a lot of sense actually, as there is no rush to work any of those tiles.

Spoiler 0-10 :

T0: Scout moves on Gold and reveals nothing special - SIP it is. Persepolis starts on a Worker, and researchers start discovering the secrets of AH.
T1: I send my Scout to west - I think they are safe from all barbs for the first 5 turns so I don't care about where they land.
T2: There are more FPs in the west, I think 2N of Oasis could be a good spot for a helper city for the FP's (if there are some hills in the north for production).
T3: I move further west - this long river could be nice spot for even third city, especially if I find some more food.
T4: I find Deer along the river, so there's definitely a lot of potential.
T5: I meet Lincoln - could he be a target of a Worker steal? I have never done it before, but I have read some good things about this strategy.
T6: Lincoln is quite close to the west.
T9: The nearby land looks quite habitable - plenty of food and some rivers. Being Imperialistic I should be able to churn out Settlers at a fast pace and fighting happiness as CHA should be a little bit easier.
T10: AH finished, I start on Mining to get that Gold.

Spoiler Map :

I stopped after 10 turns, as those small mistakes tend to snowball. Unfortunately no Horses. Should I Worker steal Lincoln? Or just expand peacefully to west and try to prevent him from expanding towards me? Imperialistic helps with the expansion a bit.

 

[Anysense]

It seems that east is the only direction in which Lincoln can send his scouting archers. Even if you had a warrior, worker stealing would be risky. It may be worth trying later, when his archers are far away. You can do with an extra worker, so many floodplains to cottage.
1N or 2N (kills deer+fish sot) of the oasis will make a good helper, it could also work gold, which is quite a burden for the capital early on with only 4 tiles.
What to research is a more difficult question. Persepolis will become unhealthy at lvl 3. There are several options:
1) mining->wheel build settler at lvl 3 (9 turns);
2) mining->wheel->fishing->BW build a boat and 2-pop whip a settler at lvl 4 (takes about the same time as option 1);
there are more but I don't like them.

 

[Anysense]

For production you need and , not hills.
Its too early to decide where your second city will be.

 

[isomittari]

It seems that east is the only direction in which Lincoln can send his scouting archers. Even if you had a warrior, worker stealing would be risky. It may be worth trying later, when his archers are far away. You can do with an extra worker, so many floodplains to cottage.
1N or 2N (kills deer+fish sot) of the oasis will make a good helper, it could also work gold, which is quite a burden for the capital early on with only 4 tiles.
What to research is a more difficult question. Persepolis will become unhealthy at lvl 3. There are several options:
1) mining->wheel build settler at lvl 3 (9 turns);
2) mining->wheel->fishing->BW build a boat and 2-pop whip a settler at lvl 4 (takes about the same time as option 1);
there are more but I don't like them.

I followed the first route research route. I still have not thought about future city spots but I would like to settle close to Lincoln. I think he might landlocked over there. I played until T33, found copper near Persepolis and am completely clueless about future at the moment - axe rush Lincoln? Should I road the Sheep ASAP or road that forested hill where the Worker currently stands in order to prepare for eventual Copper route?

Spoiler 10-33 :

T11: I forgot to put Espionage on Lincoln, I do it now.
T12: Hinduism found somewhere.
T14: Buddhism found somewhere.
T15: Worker is out and heads out to improve the Sheep. Persepolis starts on a Warrior.
T17: Mining done, I start on TW.
T18: My Scout finds Horses in the south but they are too far to take advantage of at this point. No Immortals, then. It would be nice to find a strategic resource.
T20: Pasture finished, the Worker now heads to work the Gold.
T21: Scout beats a Lion, I pick WM1.
T25: TW done, I start on BW - should I have gone with Pottery? Warrior is out, I send him towards Lincoln. Persepolis works Sheep and Gold now, reducing the research time considerably.
T26: I am a little confused about what to do with the Worker, but I head to work the PH. Maybe I should have built a road on the Sheep?
T28: Another Warrior heads towards southeast to explore and eventually fogbust.
T29: I start a Settler in Persepolis, 10T.
T30: I meet Shaka... I hate this guy, he always runs over me with superior troops at some point.
T32: PH mine done, I will now road the Sheep.
T33: BW is done, that PH was actually Copper! I will not road at this point so I can still build some Warriors.

Spoiler :

 

[Anysense]

Yep, you don't connect copper, not yet. Connect sheep, you need them for health. I think 1W of cows is a decent spot for second city. Early on a city need just 3-4 good tiles, those will be cows+2FP+green hill. Anyway, everything else is too far away.
I don't understand your yearning to cripple Lincoln. Makes no sense to me, monarch AI already is pathetic. Well, if you really want to hurt him, try to steal a worker. Then take peace. Sooner or later he will build a couple of cities for you, while you are settling elsewhere.

 

[Fizz'l]

Looks like you've found the king of starting locations! What are people's thoughts on the following city locations?
1E of oasis: only 2 from flood plain
3E1S of capital: share crabs with capital and cows in BFC.
That's what I'd do, but then what I do and what I should do are often two different things

 

[Anysense]

Sharing crabs and more FP's is something to consider.
1) 1W from the cows. Cows>crabs and 2 in the central tile. On the other hand, no access to crabs, and that can be regarded as a drawback, considering the amount of food the capital has even without those crabs. Kills forest (a loss of 20 or 30 ), does not need monument (saves 30). Cows' location is rather awkward (takes more worker turns to improve it).
2) 2W from the cows. More shared tiles, a lot of worker turns saved (at least until the borders pop), food is improved faster. On the downside, crabs<cows, no free hammer from PH and a monument is a must.

 

[isomittari]

I don't understand your yearning to cripple Lincoln. Makes no sense to me, monarch AI already is pathetic. Well, if you really want to hurt him, try to steal a worker. Then take peace. Sooner or later he will build a couple of cities for you, while you are settling elsewhere.

This is just a wrong mindset I have developed while playing - I see a close, non-warring neighbor and I immediately start planning on destroying them with an early rush. I will have to adjust my thinking accordingly and just let Lincoln spread peacefully for a while.

Spoiler 34-50 :

T34: I decided that I will settle 3E1S from Persepolis to share more tiles and also to grab that Crab.
T38: I start building a road that will connect Persepolis and the 2nd city.
T39: Pottery is done, I start on Writing.
T41: Pasargadae is found. My Scout gets WM2, yay! I think I will need a lot of Workers so I start building one in Pasargadae. Worker starts building a Cottage that can be owrked by both cities. I have a problem - Persepolis already has a good production but not yet growth, so should I just slow build a Granary and maybe a Worker/Settler or just switch to FPs and grow?
T42: Shaka adopts to Slavery, but I don't see Copper around his capital. Maybe in the hidden spots.
T45: I meet Liz in the south.
T46: Writing done, I start on Alpha and after this trade some techs (hopefully Fishing, at least). I start working the FPs in Persepolis as I want to grow to 4 and start another Settler, putting some hammers to a Library while growing. I sign OB with Lincoln.
T48: I sign OB with Liz to explore her land. A barb archer is coming from the west towards me, I move away with my Warrior.
T50: I stop here, as I feel like I did not have a clear plan or direction.

Spoiler Maps :

I played a short round as this part is very challenging for me. I don't know what I should produce and what tiles I should work. Actually I do not know what to research either, so I am pretty clueless overall.

 

[Anysense]

You seem to contradict yourself a lot. Share crabs and skip fishing, settle low production city and build a worker there. With cows in the first ring it would be 4+4 against 3 and just 1 (two times better, in short). And building a granary was rather pointless. I mean, yeah, its a good building, but what use is it now? You could have that settler out around 2200 BC. Instead, you built a granary and started on settler in 2000 BC with a prosect of finishing in 1720 BC. That is a 480/40=12 turns difference.
I suggest you replay this turnset and make it a bit shorter. You need to understand that nothing in this game matters by itself, and its essential to make everything fit.

 

[Fizz'l]

Good idea to replay turn set. This time settle 1W of cows. Have worker ready to start pasture on turn off settle. The early +1H from PH and also big bonus from cows will let you produce much quicker. Also settler before granary in capital as anysense suggested. Play to turn 50. You can then compare where you are at 2000BC to see which was the better choice.

 

[isomittari]

You seem to contradict yourself a lot. Share crabs and skip fishing, settle low production city and build a worker there. With cows in the first ring it would be 4+4 against 3 and just 1 (two times better, in short). And building a granary was rather pointless. I mean, yeah, its a good building, but what use is it now? You could have that settler out around 2200 BC. Instead, you built a granary and started on settler in 2000 BC with a prosect of finishing in 1720 BC. That is a 480/40=12 turns difference.
I suggest you replay this turnset and make it a bit shorter. You need to understand that nothing in this game matters by itself, and its essential to make everything fit.

I gave it another go, and I was at least a little bit more efficient with everything. Third city will be found in T51.

Spoiler 34-50 :

T34: Worker starts building road for the Sheep.
T37: Settler is out, two turns earlier than in my previous attempt.
T38: Switch to Slavery, I think this a good time to do it as I lose only round of production on Warrior.
T39: Pottery is done, I start on Writing.
T40: Pasargadae is found, one turn earlier than before and even a bit further away. Worker starts improving the Cows.
T44: Persepolis starts on another Settler. Worker is roading the Cows to fight the unhealthiness.
T47: Writing done, I start on Alpha and after this trade some techs (hopefully Fishing, at least).
T50: I stop here, as I feel like I did not have a clear plan or direction. I will settle 1E of Oasis on the next turn.

Spoiler Maps :

 

[Anysense]

That's better. Although I'd rather have another settler than grow the capital to lvl 4 only to work another unimproved FP. There is still a lot of good land to settle. Probably 1W west of the sheep next, and a couple of cities along rivers. The latter won't be very productive, at least they will generate decent amounts of once you had the riverside cottaged. You may even grab wheat-fish spot if Lincoln is too slow.
Yes, you can skip Fishing. No need for crabs until you want your capital to grow and you can't wait for AI's to research Alpha. They probably won't do it before AD. Besides, Fishing is one of the few techs AI's will have to offer when you finish Alpha.

 

[sampsa]

Yep, looks very solid play so far. I'd go for at least one more settler(+worker?) in capital before a granary. Granary is useful only when your city is growing/fluctuating in size rapidly, thus after a granary you are very rarely slow-building any more settlers/workers, especially with access to some -resources AND being charismatic. is often the thing that is restraining you from whipping a lot of settlers/workers WHEN you have many beneficial city spots, like you have here.

It's a great map to learn how to build up an empire, and you can mostly ignore AIs during this build up.

 

[isomittari]

Spoiler 51-61 :

T51: I start another Settler in Persepolis. Susa is found 1E of Oasis.
T52: I move my fogbusters further away and also start exploring Lincoln's lands.
T54: Pasargadae build a Worker, I decide to start on another one as there's so much land to improve and the next city is a bit further away.
T56: Persepolis is done with Settler, I start building yet another Worker. I sign OB with Ragnar, he is Buddhist.
T59: Lincoln is indeed landlocked, and can only expand towards me.
T61: I stop here, as I have no idea what to produce next - more Settlers? Finally Granaries? Library somewhere?

Spoiler Maps :

I have four cities now, and there's still plenty of high quality land to settle. Should I produce more Settlers? Finally do some Granaries? Do I need a Library in Persepolis? Did I build too much Workers already?
At some point I will also have to hook up strategic resources and build some troops to avoid wars, right? I have marked some possible city spots on the map, are these good, or should I expand towards Shaka? I really like the spot
with Ivory, Horses, Stone, Oasis and fresh water lake in the south.

 

[Anysense]

I have four cities now, and there's still plenty of high quality land to settle. Should I produce more Settlers?

By all means keep exanding. I'd say at lest two cities more before you start developing the capital.

Finally do some Granaries?

Yep, while your capital is busy producing settlers, other cities can grow and whip granaries. Pasargadae can easily 1-pop whi granary thanks to its good base production, but you should not stagnate Susa attempting to do the same thing there. Chop if you want to build granary in Susa with 1-pop whip, but don't stagnate. Working that gold won't hurt your capital, because it can't grow while building settlers anyway.

Do I need a Library in Persepolis?

Of course you do, but the right order would be: settlers, granary, library. One of the reasons you want your first cities to be productive early on, is that you need other cities than capital capable of producing workers and settlers at decent rate, so you can develop your capital. That's very easy with imerialistic leader, because it makes a settler cost just 10 more than a worker. Any city with a granary and good food can build settlers at the rate of 1 per ~6 turns.

At some point I will also have to hook up strategic resources and build some troops to avoid wars, right?

Wrong. You don't build units just to let them obsolete. That would be a horrible waste of hammers and gold. Only build units when you are preparing for war. Of course, you are never completely safe without getting AI's to pleased/friendly. And that is one of the reasons why early wars are good. You gain something through conquest and by the way make yourself ready for potential DoW's.

I have marked some possible city spots on the map, are these good, or should I expand towards Shaka? I really like the spot
with Ivory, Horses, Stone, Oasis and fresh water lake in the south.

I don't really like that spot, that city would have to stagnate, probably at lvl 4, working oasis, horses, ivory and gold. But it might actually be a good decision to claim all those resources with one city, because there is no food in the whole area around the ivory. You need to scout the coust, though. There can be some seafood, that would change everything.
Your c1 dot is plain horrible as it kills the fish. May be 1W? You're about to finish Alpha and backfill Fishing and Mysticism, a city 2W of the copper could take it from the capital and quickly build a monument and granary. In the mean while the capital could grow on food-high tiles. I would make it my 6th or 7th city.

 

[isomittari]

Spoiler 61-71 :

T64: Alphabet in, I trade Writing for Fishing and Archery with Lincoln. I want to put one turn in Sailing in order to tech trade it.
T65: I start on Math to eventually go for Elepult attack.
T66: I whip a Granary in Pasargadae.
T67: Liz asks me to stop trading with Ragnar, I refuse. She is the worst enemy of Ragnar and Shaka. I OB with Shaka, I want to build a road to one of his cities to get foreign TR. Settler is finished in Persepolis, I start another one.
T69: Tarsus has been found.
T71: I stopped here. I have five cities and one Settler coming in two turns.

Spoiler Maps :

With five cities and one more coming up, I think the expansion has gone quite well. I am still building Workers in order to connect my cities to each other and to other Civs, and also to improve tiles. Ectabana will be connected to my trade network as soon as I can trade Sailing with some other Civ.
I would still like to do at least two cities, the Wheat + Fish near Lincoln (unless he can do it first), the Copper + Fish west of Persepolis, and that river/FP/Stone/Copper/Rice between Susa and Ectabana. Also, Horses and Ivory would be nice at some point.

I am not sure about my tech path, I was thinking I could go for Math to get some improved chops once I start building those Granaries and Libraries, and also to help me reach Construction faster for Elepults. I was thinking that I should not research Myst/Sailing/IW since those can be traded with the AI. What do you think?

 

[Anysense]

Whiping with granary is roughly 2.5 more efficient than slow-building. Besides, you can live without new workers for a while, its not urgent. In fact, if you grew to lvl 4 and whipped, you would have those workers earlier than if you slow-build them.
If you want to elepult someone (Lincoln and Shaka to be exact), you need to hook up ivory soon. May be settle on ivory 2S of the stone. This way you grab all the resources in one go and won't have to bother with that horrible food-deprived region anymore. Remember that you need HBR as well.
I'm not sure about wheat+fish. May be just raze New York and rebuild 1SE? I don't like to raze though. Fish+deer+copper is a good place but will take time to set it up properly. I think its fish+deer => ivory => granary in Persepolis. In Ectabana granary => worker.
There is an alternative: finish that last settler in Persepolis and 2-pop whip another in Pasargadae. There are a lot of options now that you have several decent cities.
Don't build too many roads, think where you will need them for military units. Plan where you will whip them and plan the roads accordingly.
Delaying Myst/Sailing/IW is fine, those are some of the technologies the AI tends to research early.
Actually you can get Sailing and IW right now. With Sailing you will instantly have +2 trade routes in all your cities.

 

[sampsa]

Anysense gives good advice. You didn't grasp my last post at all, it seems. Whip settlers/workers after you have a granary! A granary does NOTHING if you stagnate. Thus first whipping a granary and then slow-building a worker is a huge mistake (if they are your two next builds in a city, do it the other way around!). I also used to make the same mistake when climbing up in difficulty levels.

You don't really need to connect Ecbatana. Building cottages is way more important. Chopping out that worker is more important, so that you can grow. Stagnating at size 1-2 is bad, when you have many good tiles available. Aim to work strong tiles as fast as possible. Mining the copper in the west is moot. Food negative tiles (ones giving less than 2 ) are usually mediocre at best, gold being an exception, but also it's value diminished when the game moves further. A cottaged floodplain is a strong tile, so that's what you should be doing with that worker.

You definitely don't need those fogbusters in the jungle. Your cities will soon need some military police in them for , so I'd just pull some of them home. Just cover the stone area.