On leaders, etc...

[Kilroy]

I know this topic has been discussed to death. And, I realize that any discussion on this topic will have little effect on Civ3 in the near term (and perhaps never). However I have come up with I scheme that I think just about everyone would enjoy, and I hope inspires some people working on future expansions. Here goes:


First of all, something needs to be done about the fact that leaders can only be generated though conquest. So, there needs to be other ways to generate leaders. For each civilization trait, there should be a corresponding way to generate a leader (although, ALL civs should be able to generate every kind of leaders).

• (Expansionist method) When you aquire a city through cultural assimilation, a leader may appear in that city. An expansionist civ has a 100% chance of generating a leader this way, while others civs have a 50% chance.
• (Militaristic method) Same as always, although I'm also going to propose that leaders generated through different methods have different attributes. More on this in a moment.
• (Religious method) Because religious cultures usually have a higher culture rating than other civs, they are more likely to assimilate nearby cities. So this method would be similar to the expansionist method, however remember that leaders generated in different manners will have different attributes.

The above methods describe the leader types that I consider to be aquired through conquest of some form, whether it be militaristic or cultural. The following leaders are aquired through more peaceful methods:

• (Scientific method) Every time you complete research on an advance that no other civ has yet discovered, you may generate a leader in one of your cities, probably the one with the highest research rating. This may need a little work since, if you're behind in the tech race, you'll never get a leader of this type.
• (Commercial method) Whenever you aquire a resource from a foreign civilization, you may generate a leader in one of your cities with a high commerce rating. If trade pacts are ever introduced, this could also be a good way to generate a leader by the commercial method.
• (Industrial method) Occasionally, one of your workers will spontaneously change into a leader. This way, the more workers you produce, the more likely you are to generate this type of leader.

Let me note once more, that ALL civs should have the ability to generate any leader type. However a civ with, for example, the industrious trait, will be more likely to have its workers change into leaders. Same goes for all the other civ traits.

Now, it would be quite boring, not to mention very pointless, if after generating all these different leaders, you had the same options concerning what to do with them. What I have in mind will associate different leaders with different buildings - but now I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me tackle military leaders first, since out of all the types this one is the most unique:

• (Military leaders) The only kind of leader capable of building an army. Because I would like to see armies more frequently in civ3, this leader should be much easier to generate than the leaders currently in civ3. To maintain balance, however, this leader should NOT be capable of rushing improvements of any kind.

All the other leaders are going to be used to rush certain wonders. Any leader can contribute to any wonder project. However, leaders whose attributes do not match that of the wonder being built (for example a commercially-generated leader rushing the Sistine Chapel), will only be able to donate shields equal to half the number of shields remaining - essentially halving the time it takes to complete a wonder. Leaders generated in a manner matching the wonder being rushed (a commercial leader rushing Adam Smith's Trading Co, or an expansionist leader rushing the Forbidden Palace), will complete the wonder on the next turn (like they do now).

You may notice that there is one last piece of the puzzle remaining. Militaristic wonders will not be able to be rushed by the next turn. To resolve this I propose that military leaders take on two types. Type 1, the type described above, will be a fairly common leader only capable of building armies. Type 2, generated through the same method as type 1 but much more rare, will be like the other leaders (it would rush Sun Tzu's AoW in one turn but only halve the time it takes to complete other wonders).


I have other ideas concerning what leaders may be able to do, but I'd like some input on what I've already said first. Have at it!

 

[philippe]

sid meier thought of that idea but it was cancelled becuase they had no time so this idea is excellent and it mayby re appears in the XP

 

[ainwood]

Yep - sounds quite a good idea. I can picture lots of Gandhi types.

 

[Blasphemous]

Wow! What an excellent idea!!!
A few additions:
-=-Expansionist leaders would treat all terrain as roads. Should also be able to form a city.
-=-Industrial leaders would retain their worker abilities, and would do them twice as fast. They should also be able to form a city.
-=-Militaristic units would stay military units (and have army creation ability) and will have double their original attack, defense, and bombard, and also recieve +1 to bombard range (if they have bombard
-=-commercial leaders join a city and become super tax collectors that creat twice (or thrice) the normal tax from a collector.
-=-religous leaders could join a city, creating a unique improvement called "shrine", which aould enerate two happy faces and two culture points per turn. They would also be able to create a terrain improvement called shrine, which would create an aura of culture (like a city), recieving 1 culture point per turn. In the cration of the shrine the leader would dissapear, as they need to tend to the shrine.
-=-Scientific leaders would be able to join cities and become super scientists, recieving twice (or thrice) the normal gold for science that a scientist gives.

all leaders will retain wonder hurrying ability, as described by kilroy

Just my 2c...

 

[sumthinelse]

Many great leaders in real life are not soldiers, but they seem to gather great strength from crises of various kinds. George Washington was a military hero like in civ3. Franklin Roosevelt, however, got his "charisma" and powers of influence from an economic depression. That could be another idea for civ4: a worldwide economic depression. King Rama V of Thailand actually lost territory to Thailand's enemies but today he is revered because of the reforms he made for the common people. So goverment changes which benefit the citizens could create a leader.

History could be a treasure trove of leader creation ideas.

 

[Hurricane]

Well, it´s not a bad idea, but I have a hard time believing Firaxis would do such a big change in the game. Also, while your idea is very good, I think it needs much more polishing to actually work well.

 

[Akka]

Where is the option "I think that leaders don't add anything to the game and should be removed" ?

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Hurricane
Well, it´s not a bad idea, but I have a hard time believing Firaxis would do such a big change in the game. Also, while your idea is very good, I think it needs much more polishing to actually work well.

You are right. But sometimes suggesting "impractical" or "crazy" ideas eventually leads to something worthwhile and doable.

George Bernard Shaw said something like "You see what is and ask 'Why?' I dream what is not and ask 'Why not?'"

 

[Major Guevara]

Originally posted by ShadowFlame
[B-=-Scientific leaders would be able to join cities and become super scientists, recieving twice (or thrice) the normal gold for science that a scientist gives.[/B]

I think scientific leaders should be able to "rush" a tech completing it in one turn. Also (this might allready have been disscused) you could have a sort of naval leader that you get from an elite ship winning a combat. The leader could create a navy unit just like the army but its a naval unit.

 

[Civ3Lover]

Originally posted by Kilroy
I know this topic has been discussed to death. And, I realize that any discussion on this topic will have little effect on Civ3 in the near term (and perhaps never). However I have come up with I scheme that I think just about everyone would enjoy, and I hope inspires some people working on future expansions. Here goes:


First of all, something needs to be done about the fact that leaders can only be generated though conquest. So, there needs to be other ways to generate leaders. For each civilization trait, there should be a corresponding way to generate a leader (although, ALL civs should be able to generate every kind of leaders).

• (Expansionist method) When you aquire a city through cultural assimilation, a leader may appear in that city. An expansionist civ has a 100% chance of generating a leader this way, while others civs have a 50% chance.
• (Militaristic method) Same as always, although I'm also going to propose that leaders generated through different methods have different attributes. More on this in a moment.
• (Religious method) Because religious cultures usually have a higher culture rating than other civs, they are more likely to assimilate nearby cities. So this method would be similar to the expansionist method, however remember that leaders generated in different manners will have different attributes.

The above methods describe the leader types that I consider to be aquired through conquest of some form, whether it be militaristic or cultural. The following leaders are aquired through more peaceful methods:

• (Scientific method) Every time you complete research on an advance that no other civ has yet discovered, you may generate a leader in one of your cities, probably the one with the highest research rating. This may need a little work since, if you're behind in the tech race, you'll never get a leader of this type.
• (Commercial method) Whenever you aquire a resource from a foreign civilization, you may generate a leader in one of your cities with a high commerce rating. If trade pacts are ever introduced, this could also be a good way to generate a leader by the commercial method.
• (Industrial method) Occasionally, one of your workers will spontaneously change into a leader. This way, the more workers you produce, the more likely you are to generate this type of leader.

Let me note once more, that ALL civs should have the ability to generate any leader type. However a civ with, for example, the industrious trait, will be more likely to have its workers change into leaders. Same goes for all the other civ traits.

Now, it would be quite boring, not to mention very pointless, if after generating all these different leaders, you had the same options concerning what to do with them. What I have in mind will associate different leaders with different buildings - but now I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me tackle military leaders first, since out of all the types this one is the most unique:

• (Military leaders) The only kind of leader capable of building an army. Because I would like to see armies more frequently in civ3, this leader should be much easier to generate than the leaders currently in civ3. To maintain balance, however, this leader should NOT be capable of rushing improvements of any kind.

All the other leaders are going to be used to rush certain wonders. Any leader can contribute to any wonder project. However, leaders whose attributes do not match that of the wonder being built (for example a commercially-generated leader rushing the Sistine Chapel), will only be able to donate shields equal to half the number of shields remaining - essentially halving the time it takes to complete a wonder. Leaders generated in a manner matching the wonder being rushed (a commercial leader rushing Adam Smith's Trading Co, or an expansionist leader rushing the Forbidden Palace), will complete the wonder on the next turn (like they do now).

You may notice that there is one last piece of the puzzle remaining. Militaristic wonders will not be able to be rushed by the next turn. To resolve this I propose that military leaders take on two types. Type 1, the type described above, will be a fairly common leader only capable of building armies. Type 2, generated through the same method as type 1 but much more rare, will be like the other leaders (it would rush Sun Tzu's AoW in one turn but only halve the time it takes to complete other wonders).


I have other ideas concerning what leaders may be able to do, but I'd like some input on what I've already said first. Have at it!

That's a perfectly reasonable idea! It'd sure enhance the game!

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Major Geuvara


I think scientific leaders should be able to "rush" a tech completing it in one turn. Also (this might allready have been disscused) you could have a sort of naval leader that you get from an elite ship winning a combat. The leader could create a navy unit just like the army but its a naval unit.

Great ideas, and they should like they might not be too hard to program.

When America developed the 1st atomic bomb, they had Einstein (yes I know he was not a "hands-on" worker at Los Alamos but his contribution is undeniable), Neils Bohr, Oppenheimer, Roosevelt in the executive office, etc. etc. etc. as leaders during at least part of the development... Maybe some some Wonders should be *partially* hurried by one great scientist or other leader but they are so big that no one leader would finish them in one turn, but might provide, say, 1/3 of the shields, or whatever the right fraction is.

Germany also had some amazing scientists during WWII that advanced rocketry far beyond the Allies, and I think there was more than a single mind that led the advance.

Galileo could do his work pretty much alone, but as science progressed, bigger teams were needed.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Kilroy


All the other leaders are going to be used to rush certain wonders. Any leader can contribute to any wonder project. However, leaders whose attributes do not match that of the wonder being built (for example a commercially-generated leader rushing the Sistine Chapel), will only be able to donate shields equal to half the number of shields remaining - essentially halving the time it takes to complete a wonder. Leaders generated in a manner matching the wonder being rushed (a commercial leader rushing Adam Smith's Trading Co, or an expansionist leader rushing the Forbidden Palace), will complete the wonder on the next turn (like they do now).

I like your new ideas about generating leaders. They would make the game more interesting and would not require such drastic game design and coding changes as some of my ideas.

However, sometimes ex-military leaders unexpectedly influence non-military changes. Napoleon, for example, profoundly influenced civil government, (and not only in France), just as much as his military conquests changed Europe's landscape.

And artists can become leaders in other fields. Goethe, the famous German poet, became a very powerful figure in govenment.

You can't judge with certainty what a leader can do by what he did before he got to be a leader!

So I would recommend making the changes you suggest for generating leaders, but maybe it would be better (and easier to program) if the leaders, once generated, were not limited to the specialty that created them.

Just my opinion.

 

[Kilroy]

Also, there are not equal numbers of every wonder type - religious and industrial wonders dominate the scene. For this reason religious and industrial leaders should be more common. Extend this to all leaders, making the chance of getting one type of leader, relative to all other types, proportional to the amount of wonders that leader represents over all the wonders in the game.

And remember, I'm not talking about drastically increasing the chance of generating a leader. That would throw the game off balance. On the other hand, you should generate slightly more leaders per game, since they aren't as effective anymore (not being able to rush every wonder). Regardless, the chance of someone generating each kind of leader in one game would be pretty small. Getting a commercial leader would be a pretty rare event, since there aren't many commercial wonders.

Also, it may be a good idea to give all leaders (again except mil type1) the ability to quickly rush small wonders, mostly to aid the building of the forbidden palace.

 

[Mr Spice]

I think it´s a bad idea. Most civs throughout history made themselves "great" by conquering their neighbours. The spoils of war were then used to enchance themselves and this is IMO what is relfected by Great Leaders in Civ 3.

 

[Civ3Lover]

Originally posted by Mr Spice
I think it´s a bad idea. Most civs throughout history made themselves "great" by conquering their neighbours. The spoils of war were then used to enchance themselves and this is IMO what is relfected by Great Leaders in Civ 3.

Great leaders emerge from bondage my friend. Joan of Arc, Temujin, Baybars, Phillipe II, Even George Washington.

Bad leaders emerge from oppression too. Hitler is a prime example.

I know on the battlefield certain leaders made themselves outstanding. (Napoleon and Rommel are the most famous in history.) But Civ is not like... And NEVER WILL BE realistic.

I like Kilroy's idea... Even if he did tick me off at first.

 

[royfurr]

I think the idea as stated by kilroy will generate too many leaders, and cause way to fast development, especially if leaders are allowed to rush techs. Maybe let science leaders only rush techs. I do like the idea of non-military leaders, but his stated chances of generating them in the different situations are, IMO, WAY too high.

Maybe also, have a time delay between when the leader is generated and when "he" can be used up to rush whatever. AND during this time there should be a chance of either a natural death (lotsa disease in the ancient days, less so after hospitals, even less after say Cure for Cancer or Longeviety). Also a chance for assassination by foreign civs. I had heard that at one time the possibility of a civ or the human player to kidnap an enemy Great leader was played with. THAT would be cool. Plus you'd need ways to "defend" your leaders ...

 

[Gregski]

Perhaps these new leaders could be given a 'quota' of the shields they can add to the production of a wonder. Say 100 in the ancient era to 400 in the modern era (you can tweak these numbers to suit). It would be nice to have leaders that are not too powerful, but give the civ a boost.
One thing that might also be explored is what happens if a leader is stationed in a city. The citizens awed by the presence of the leader work with greatly reduced corruption and waste.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Civ3Lover


Great leaders emerge from bondage my friend. Joan of Arc, Temujin, Baybars, Phillipe II, Even George Washington.

Or from a crisis (Churchill, Lincoln, F D Roosevelt, J F Kennedy). Kennedy fits the CIV3 model of a leader pretty well, though. He was a war hero, inspired the program to put a man on the moon in what could be considered a miraculously short time. I think it was the Cuban Missle Crisis that produced more "charisma" for him than his WWII adventure.

"Charisma" should be a key in how a leader is generated but how would I design "charisma" in a computer game?