Openings for Back-loaded leaders.

[Yeosol]

I'm a little stuck on what type of opening strategy I should be aiming for with back-loaded leaders. By back-loaded I mean leaders who's major bonuses come latter and have little advantage at the start/ancient/classical ages. I generally like to come up with a starting strategy before starting the game and then shoot for that. I ran into this problem playing Napoleon (warlords).

Certain traits like creative/expansive/aggressive/imperialistic/industrious/financial are very front loaded. You get immediate bonuses right in your first cities and playing them well is about maximizing these bonuses so that come mid-game you’re sitting in a strong position for the finish. Good starts here include wonder rushing (ind) axe rush (agr) city spam (creative/Fin) granary/whipping based expansion (exp).

As I said I ran into this problem playing Nappy. He's Charismatic/Organized. Both of which are great traits but have few bonuses early, not to mention his UU/UB come late as well. All I’ve been able to figure out is maybe shoot for Stonehenge for the monument bonus.

Some others I’d say are back-loaded are Churchill and maybe Frederick.
Asoka, Saladin and Brennus are as well but they start with mysticism making early religion accessible.

What do you guys think? How should I be opening with leaders like this?

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Charismatic gives you extra happiness in the beginning, so aim for larger cities and build monuments on higher levels (you won't need them on lower levels). It also is a trait that allows faster promotions - you want to get the infrastructure for good units later - that means warring to get great generals for instructors, building barracks and researching civics that allow XP bonuses.

Organized means getting COL early and building more cities due to reduced maintenance. It also means you can be more aggressive taking cities off the AI and keeping them instead of razing. Which builds up your experience which leads to the charismatic trait shining.

If your traits come into effect later, it means your earlier efforts need to be aimed at making the trait shine when it does appear and bringing it to appearance earlier.

None of the traits involve waiting very long to affect your strategy. By the time you are getting techs in the Classical era, all traits are effective to some degree. Late UU and UB are another issue, but you can't do much about that.

 

[frob2900]

Napoleon is not "back loaded" at all. He has charmismatic which is extremely powerful all throughout the game. Once you have conquered lots of happiness resources and got calendar, the happiness bonus diminshes but the XP requirement reduction remains.

The charistmatic trait allows your early cities 1 extra happiness + 1 for monument. This effectively means +2 size or two extra gratuitous whippings per city. Therefore, this is a very powerful opening trait. It works for both both builders and warmongers.

As examples of "later" traits I'd say perhaps financial (not true with floodplains/oases present), organized and protective (who builds early archery units anyway?).

For leaders with only such traits I'd recommend following the standard worker/worker/settler/..one or two things in between../axe*15 chopping strategy. You then have a large empire to which apply your traits when they do kick in.

 

[vale]

Nobody with Charismatic can be called back loaded regardless of when their UU/UB make an appearance. Free early happiness is a huge boost to the early game.

The only traits that I would consider heavily back loaded by your definition would be protective and organized. Financial does not qualify because it has its largest impact on the game at a relatively early stage.

It is an interesting way to consider traits though and when picking my favorite traits, I tend to prefer ones that are heavily front loaded. (Creative is by far my favorite trait independent of a discussion of power)

In response to your question about how to deal with Napoleon, war early, war often, and keep more of the captured cities since you will be able to afford them more easily with cheap courthouses at Code of Laws.

 

[futurehermit]

Financial is front loaded and charismatic is back loaded??? You may want to rethink that.

Financial really shines in the late game, not the early game imo.

Charismatic really shines in the early game. Perhaps you are just not playing on a high enough difficulty level, but +2 very early in the game is stupendously good imo!!! Plus faster-promoted units meaning your initial rush will be very beneficial?

Organized is another front-loaded trait!!! It means you can sustain 4 instead of 3 cities. So that's another early city: HUGE! Plus that city has two extra population points meaning a total of x + 2 population in your empire, where x is the happiness afforded to you by your difficulty level and early resources!!! HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE!

Napoleon is one of my favourite leaders for the reasons I've illustrated. He is very frontloaded and I only really love frontloaded leaders

 

[Sjaramei]

Napoleon is my favorite leader cause of his traits

He is one of the best warmongers available, as mentioned Charismatic happiness is huge at high difficulties, organized is awesome with it's cheap courthouses and civic reduction. With Napoleon you can get a decent sized capital quick, and keep the war machine going with those cheap courthouses conveniently whipped out the minute a city goes out of revolt

The UU suck, so don't bother with it. The UB is okay, but nothing special, so with Napoleon it's all about warfare as it should be

Domination is your strategy with this guy!

 

[futurehermit]

Couple things about Napoleon:

1) The UU is respectable. Why I like it: I like to mop up continents with cavalry. No need for catapults. However, I need city defenders because I don't want to leave cav behind. Voila: Enter 2-move muskets that can keep up with my cavalry!!! I love the musketeer for that reason!

2) The UB is also respectable. Why I like it: I like to stay in representation with Napoleon (FE/SE --> Domination). The free artists are a huge boon. Why? Well first of all that's 3*modifiers beakers x the number of cities you have (a LOT when going domination). That's a nice influx of beakers for a building that modifies science Secondly, the free artist is pumping culture for you, which is great for helping secure the land you need more quickly for domination

It's all about cav-powered domination wins with Napoleon (and Louis I would say, although I approach it differently a bit). Shut down research after constitution (rep), military tradition (cav), gunpowder (uu), chemistry (frig), and astronomy (gall, ub).

 

[jackdog]

Sorry to redirect a little but comments on the 'standard' worker, worker, settler would be good at this stage.

I usually warrior,settler, worker in each new city with barbs on (screw with which tile is worker to time warrior to complete as city turns size 2, ive never had the balls to wait for that first settler from city 1 (prince or monarch level) as that great bit of land close..ish to city one may be compromised or gone by then, early growth of city one is good, but at the expense of city 2 placement ???

comments, votes please, worker first or settler first, can you excuse warrior first so you explore where city 2 goes or do you leave city 1 empty for the essential explore.

Does city 2 get a warrior first?

thanx

 

[futurehermit]

worker-worker-settler is nice if you have lots of forests to chop. some people feel the chopping nerf has made this opening less efficient. i'm using it with success right now.

worker first is usually the right move, regardless. gotta get a farm on that rice/wheat/corn right away.

exceptions: if you get a coastal start and start with fishing max-production on a fishing boat or two first. if you start inland with fishing/hunting your worker may have little to do, so open with a scout first and then worker. if you start with mysticism and want to chase an early religion then your worker may have little to do so start with a warrior first. if going for judaism (say you missed hinduism) then build a settler after your warrior/size 2.

city 2 should get a monument/stonehenge first a lot of the time. if it doesn't need culture (creative/good tiles immediately) then you could go warrior first to grow or else barracks if you already have a garrison dude or figure you can go without for a bit.

 

[Jerrymander]

Protective can be front-loaded if you shoot for early longbowmen.

And with Churchill, you'll have Drill IV longbowmen running around willy nilly.

 

[futurehermit]

the problem with early longbowmen is when you encounter ais that have their own early longbowmen this happens far too often on the higher levels

i just don't feel protective is front-loaded at all--unless you're going for cultural or small-empire space/diplo. it starts to shine in the gunpowder era. it's a great trait in the hands of the ai so i don't begrudge it in that respect (i've screwed up many a game attacking protective ais with insufficient troops...it's amazing how well city raider 2-3 protective archer-units can do).

 

[Yeosol]

Well after playing the game out a bit I see what you guys mean about charismatic, it is good early. The +1 happiness seemed small to me at first. I guess I’m just used to playing charismatic as Cyrus. With him I’m not really settling/developing a lot of cities of my own. Of course I’m using the charismatic in early war but I figured its success was mostly from the immortal. With so many GG’s coming Char really starts to shine once you get a 2 or 3 MI city allowing you to make CRIII maces and blitz cav. To me Aggr seemed like the better early no UU rusher. I guess it still is but Char can work, especially if you fish around for some barbs first .

In this game however I built Stonehenge (which I don’t do as Cyrus) and then went oracle for CoL. This was huge giving me +2 happiness with charismatic, another from religion and giving me early cheap courthouses and a holy city + GProphet on the way for the shrine. Talk about synergy. I Think for sure I’m playing on to low a level for organized to bonus early (Prince) as 3-4 cities seams small to me. I usually go for ~5 then 6-7 with CoL.

I agree with you though that the Musketeer is a pretty good UU. I’ve always thought, though never tested, that if you could launch a short pillaging war against a close civ mid-medieval age that would stunt their growth enough to keep them from grenadiers while you ran over then with muskets. Or just pick on someone weak. With drafting you can get a large army quick.
I’m excited about their change in the expansion if that “magical post” which played a disappearing act was correct. In that case grenadiers are pushed back past chemistry to require military science.

So are there any truly back-loaded leaders?

 

[Winston Hughes]

It's a minor point, and futurehermit almost made it himself, but if the OP is playing on lower difficulties (I don't believe the level was mentioned) that might explain the description of Char/Org as 'back-loaded'.

Sub-Noble (iirc - it's been a while) civic costs are negligible for a big chunk of the game, and courthouses are fairly low on the list of priorities (early expansion is best paid for by increasing & income, rather than reducing the costs), while extra is less obviously valuable early on (since you start with more). Throw in the greatly reduced incidence of barbs (so the exp. bonus won't get troops so highly promoted by the time of the first proper war) and you have a trait combo that could take a while to get going.

That said, with the extra you could whip like crazy (don't wait until the happy cap is restored - just be careful not to let get out of hand), then expand more aggressively, safe in the knowledge that as the costs rise you'll not get so severely stung in the mid-game.

Edit: Too late again! Curse my slow-typing.

 

[futurehermit]

So are there any truly back-loaded leaders?

My sense is that financial and protective are back-loaded. Cottages shine later in the game and production is so important early on. I don't build many archers but protective grens/rifles/infantry are nice.

 

[budweiser]

Funny, I'm into Nappy right now too. As was said Cha/Org allows for an extra city to start with and bigger cites than normal.

Of course, I jast can't play any old way when I am a civ like France. I have to have the National Epic in Paris along with Notre Dame.

Then I have to be first to build Versaille and then make sure I get the Eiffel Tower. That's quite a trick, because it means a lot of jumping around the tech tree. But, I've figured out that artist can light buld Divine Right, so I think I can do it.

Then there is the ever present Liberalism race...

 

[frob2900]

So are there any truly back-loaded leaders?

No.

Not when considering traits.

With unique units/buildings it's a completely different story:

Huyana Capac vs. Roosevelt. Crazy difference.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

My sense is that financial and protective are back-loaded. Cottages shine later in the game and production is so important early on. I don't build many archers but protective grens/rifles/infantry are nice.

Financial is front loaded IMO. +1 commerce when you have a town generating 7 is a much smaller relative bonus than +1 commerce when your river cottage generates only 2 commerce. Its effectively +50% on your early cottage investments which gives a big research boost at the beginning and allows you to more easily sustain early expansion and war.

Protective is a funny one. In the situation where you can't find metals or horses then its extremely useful at the beginning. I've had this happen with Wang Kon - which was a lucky combination because his traits and UU really helped. Also cheap walls let you deter attackers, but are only worth building early.

They should make walls give culture like castles - it would be a lot more realistic for borders to expand around a defended town than around a monument. And then whipping a wall for culture would be a good option. That might make protective more useful.

 

[Mango]

Yeah, charasmatic leaders have an oppurtunity for +2 more happiness than other leaders as soon as you research mysticism. You get the +1 bonus automatically and then +1 from monuments. That's extremely powerful early, because a charasmatic leader can run cities in the 7s and 8s in population from the very beginning of the game.

 

[futurehermit]

Financial is front loaded IMO. +1 commerce when you have a town generating 7 is a much smaller relative bonus than +1 commerce when your river cottage generates only 2 commerce. Its effectively +50% on your early cottage investments which gives a big research boost at the beginning and allows you to more easily sustain early expansion and war.

Protective is a funny one. In the situation where you can't find metals or horses then its extremely useful at the beginning. I've had this happen with Wang Kon - which was a lucky combination because his traits and UU really helped. Also cheap walls let you deter attackers, but are only worth building early.

They should make walls give culture like castles - it would be a lot more realistic for borders to expand around a defended town than around a monument. And then whipping a wall for culture would be a good option. That might make protective more useful.

I agree with you to a certain extent, but production is in the early game, which is why i consider financial to be more of a late-game trait. The fact that you get +1 commerce on cottaged river and coastal tiles from the get go is a nice early bonus, no question though.

Also, I agree with whoever said that UUs and UBs contribute to front/backloading. America certainly is backloaded in that regard.

 

[vale]

In terms of their UU and UB, the Americans are unloaded.