Opportunities

[Jorlem]

For what it is worth, I'd like to state my support for negative events.

It's not a playstyle I've seen discussed much around here, but when I play, I try to play with a simulationist style. I always pick a random leader, and make my decisions based on how I think that leader might react to the situations he or she is faced with, making up a story in my head as I go along of the country's history. I don't think very far ahead for tech choices, trying to pick techs that would be desired at the moment, not beelining. I also ignore the Great Person progress meters, as I prefer thinking of the birth of true geniuses and visionaries as unpredictable events, and welcome surprises. (I do use InfoAddict, which I integrate into my games as the results of espionage, in the absence of any existing spy mechanic.)

What I'm trying to convey here is that there exist some (few?) people that prefer a more simulational, non-optimal approach to the game. Excluding negative random events hurts CiV's simulationist aspects, as while these sort of things are frustrating, they add realism to the game. Off the top of my head, I can recall events like the Kamikaze, a storm which destroyed an attempted Mongolian invasion of Japan, or more commonly, the Russian winter hampering and/or destroying invading armies. Pompeii was destroyed by a volcano, and the Black Death is perhaps the most well known and devastating plague in history.

Maybe you could put a toggle or something on the options menu at the game set up screen, so those people, of which I am sure I am not the only one, can play with negative events, while the rest of you can ignore them?

 

[albie_123]

I made this post when Opportunities were just being put in, which I think is along the same lines on what you're saying, but I would argue for events to be neither positive or negative, rather, simply a choice between a mix of both:

I think we should take a leaf from the Grand Strategy book, and make the more positive options of events have a more lasting negative effect than just a lump sum of gold. When you make a decision, it should feel like you're enhancing / improving a certain, different road of playstyle at the cost of making another road harder or less accessible, not a choice between two positive effects. As it stands, events are more just a test of how much money you have in your reserves. For example, in games such as EU3 or Victoria II, there are practically no completely negative decisions, you will simply be forced to decrease one aspect of your nation to increase another. This is also much more historically accurate - after all, nations and cities are much more prone to failing due to mistakes made by the rulers, not by tornadoes.

In short:

- Gold should not be the only, nor the primary, payoff for per turn bonuses.

- Every major bonus (Usually the top two choices, where the bottom is more passive) should have payoffs in the opposite area.

- Purely 'negative' and 'positive' events should be discarded in favour of grey-area events.

- Choices should feel like choices, not choosing different bonuses.

- Events should cause the player to slightly alter their playstyle in a similar to (albiet more subtle than) Civ bonuses and Unique Units / Buildings.

However, despite my opinion not changing - I would still love positive events to also have negative pay-offs other than the cost of not choosing a different one - I've realised that if you look at the entirety of the game, there is not a single negative effect, anywhere. Everything is strictly positive. It's a huge, huge shame for guys like you and me, but we're not the majority, and so I wouldn't want Thal to put in a mechanic completely different to anything yet existing to please us.

Incidentally, you sound like you'd enjoy Grand Strategy games such as Europa Universalis III and Victoria II. I would suggest checking them out. (Although, they are pretty damn complicated to start with )

 

[Babri]

For what it is worth, I'd like to state my support for negative events.

It's not a playstyle I've seen discussed much around here, but when I play, I try to play with a simulationist style. I always pick a random leader, and make my decisions based on how I think that leader might react to the situations he or she is faced with, making up a story in my head as I go along of the country's history. I don't think very far ahead for tech choices, trying to pick techs that would be desired at the moment, not beelining. I also ignore the Great Person progress meters, as I prefer thinking of the birth of true geniuses and visionaries as unpredictable events, and welcome surprises. (I do use InfoAddict, which I integrate into my games as the results of espionage, in the absence of any existing spy mechanic.)

What I'm trying to convey here is that there exist some (few?) people that prefer a more simulational, non-optimal approach to the game. Excluding negative random events hurts CiV's simulationist aspects, as while these sort of things are frustrating, they add realism to the game. Off the top of my head, I can recall events like the Kamikaze, a storm which destroyed an attempted Mongolian invasion of Japan, or more commonly, the Russian winter hampering and/or destroying invading armies. Pompeii was destroyed by a volcano, and the Black Death is perhaps the most well known and devastating plague in history.

Maybe you could put a toggle or something on the options menu at the game set up screen, so those people, of which I am sure I am not the only one, can play with negative events, while the rest of you can ignore them?

I roleplay ciV too. I think negative events would help in keeping check on world powers to keep things interesting. Right now once u get at top of the score & have a strong enough military, contiuing is pointless due to complete absence of negatives in ciV. Only happiness is used to limit expansion & power which makes it boring due to lack of any other limiting factors.

Also I agree with albie_123. Events are very similar to CS & it would make sense if they have some sort of payoff other than simply gold. Choices could be made more varied by adding some negative impacts as well as positives in a balanced fashion.

 

[Txurce]

I agree with albie in prefering Opportunities to be more neutral, and also see how a game with negative Opportunities could be fun. The problem with it is that those who prefer it are a minority, and it's diametrically opposite to how the majority play. An option toggle would be terrific, especially if it could be extended over to G&K, but it might be too much work.

 

[Thalassicus]

This is one of the few things I do feel strongly about. However, I'm open to compromise and the toggle is a good idea. Check out the overview section of the first post in this thread. If you create some negative events on that spreadsheet, I'll do the work of adding them to the game as an on/off toggle.

 

[albie_123]

The problem with it is that those who prefer it are a minority, and it's diametrically opposite to how the majority play.

While this is true for the majority of gamers, and probably CiV gamers, I am not sure this holds true for the gamerbase of VEM.

However, I understand Thal's objections to it entirely, and so if it were implemented I think an on / off switch is the way to go.

 

[Thalassicus]

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on "majority" discussions, it could be needlessly divisive. Everyone has their own preferences for what makes a game fun! I like to consider all viewpoints, especially when those views are not my own.

 

[wobuffet]

I strongly feel that the Happiness options in Opportunities should be bumped up from +2 to +3 if not more (or -20%:c5angry in this city, etc). I don't think I've ever picked Happiness over, say, Production or Science.

I don't really like the idea of negative events/opportunities, although I don't particularly like that all Opportunities cost flat amounts (especially when the tradeoff is - for +/turn!). More interesting options like a temporary -25% Science (or , etc.) malus would multiply the number of possible (yield-vs-yield) tradeoffs and get rid of the out-of-place-seeming incentive to keep some money in the treasury "just in case" for Opportunities.


edit: Assuming the yield-vs-yield idea is technically infeasible, the following would make Opportunities' gold-centeredness much more palatable to me:

• The first opportunity a player faces in each game costs 20 (with the third option being free but offering reduced benefits, as always).
• The second opportunity costs 30.
• The third costs 40, the next 50, etc.

This way, players would know exactly how much to keep around in the Treasury just in case, esp. since we can't trade luxes, etc. before choosing an Opportunity option: the top-of-screen notice could say, "A pasture near Rome has gained Production! Your next opportunity will cost 60.", for example. It could also be calibrated to match the naturally diminishing value of each unit of as the game progresses ("naturally" meaning it happens to every other yield, post-multipliers, in the game: e.g., with in larger cities, with costlier units/buildings, with more expensive Social Policies, with more expensive Techs.)

 

[albie_123]

I disagree with the idea of knowing how much your next opportunity will cost. The idea of making opportunities less about random chance and more about 'Oh, I'll save up for the next one' makes them just another way to buy yields, and makes them even less exciting.

 

[mitsho]

I disagree as well, there's also the gamble of saying I really need this scout now so I buy them and hope my opportunity doesn't show up versus waiting til I have enough gold to buy the scout and still have enough gold in the case the opportunity shows up. (Bad example since a scout is so easily built, but you get the drift )

As for negative opportunities, there's several ways to spin that:

1. as negative events sui generis: Just set-backs in general, adding immersion. -> Design decision. Can be made into
2. Cost-and-Benefits: f.e. a fire burns down a city, you can either buy the building back, or improve it or let it burn down completely. (option 1: pay gold, 2: pay gold+improved yield 3: building lost)
3. as a balance effect: Catastrophes target advanced civs more (by for example being triggered by a university instead of a library)
4. as 'hidden positives': There's a catastrophe, but you need to decide how to profit from it. Same as the fire above, just that there are no options that only cost you, negative opportunity in name only (Noino?), but the textual flavour of catastrophe is here.
5. as historical flavour: Just textual events without actual negative effects.

I would like type 2 or 4, I don't like type 1 and 5, undecided about type 3

Btw. is there a list of the opportunities added (what's the immigration city state opportunity? I'd like to see one and I do think we need to have a few new ones possible at the start so that you don't always get the scout or warrior ones, for example a few targeting river or forest or ressource tiles or the palace in general or one that gives you a working boat (scout or use on fish cost?). Also, there needs to be slave uprisings and barbarian invasions (see my brainstorming list a few pages back )

 

[albie_123]

4 is already in-game and is Thal's preference: For example, the current 'controversy' opportunity for the Monument and the mining strike opportunity.

2 is what I would go for, and what was also present in Civ IV: BTS. Your example is almost identical to one from that expansion, in fact!

 

[Thalassicus]

You can see the opportunities currently in the game by a) downloading the spreadsheet attached to the first post or b) open the /Vem/Triggers mod folder.

 

[Delgar]

Opportunities are great, it really gives the game a lot of flavour. I hope no one minds if I suggest opportunities that I don't see in the latest CivVModding excel sheet... here are my suggestions for a couple of opportunities that affect diplomatic relations with other civilizations.

[1] Border clash (triggers only when two civilization's borders are touching, and there is a military unit standing at the edge of your border)

Description: Tensions are flaring between Civilization X and Y after soldiers from Civilization X were found accidentally trespassing within the borders of Civilization Y as a result of a military exercise.

Compassion: Issue a public statement of apology to Civilization Y and promise that it will never happen again (cost 150 gold, +3 for diplomatic relations with Y)

Ruthlessness: Deny that the incident ever happened and push the blame onto Y for fabricating tales (cost 150 gold, affected military gets 10% combat strength bonus)

Local decision: Let the local general handle this (+1 for diplomatic relations with Y)

[2] Ambassador faux paus (triggers anytime you have open borders with another country)

Description: In an unfortunate turn of events, your ambassador to Civilization Y recently committed a serious faux pas during a diplomatic event which was meant to send a signal of strong ties between you and Civilization Y.

Compassion: Send gifts and an official statement of apology to Civilization Y for the mistake (150 gold, +3 diplomatic relations with Civilization Y)

Ruthlessness: Make a strong claim that the faux pas was a result of cultural misunderstanding and what the ambassador did is accepted in your own culture, and you will not apologize for your civilization's roots (150 gold, +3 culture in capital)

Local: Let your Minister of Foreign Affairs handle this (+1 diplomatic relationships with Civilization Y)

 

[Delgar]

A couple more from me.

[3] Value of your currency has gone up, affecting exports to Civilization Y (triggers after any finance-based technology has been researched and only when there is open borders with Civ Y)

Description: Your economy has recently gone from strength to strength, with GDP rising by an unprecedented amount. As a result, exports to Civilization Y have gone down due to the strength of your currency.

Compassion: Set a fixed exchange rate for your currency so to as allow exports to Civ Y continue to flow at the same rate (cost 250 gold, +3 diplomatic relations with Civ Y)

Ruthlessness: Continue to let your currency strengthen so that exports become more and more expensive for Civ Y (cost 250 gold, +3 gold in Capital)

Local decision: Let your Minister of Finance handle this matter (+1 gold in Capital)

[4] Your university in <city_name> has gained a global reputation for educational excellence (triggers anytime after you build a university)

Description: University of <city_name> has recently topped a global list of "Top 10 universities to study at". With its embellished reputation, applications from overseas students, especially Civilization Y, to study at the university are soaring in recent times.

Compassion: Relax the visa requirements for foreign students from Y so that it is easier for them to get a place at your university (cost 250 gold, +3 diplomatic relations with Y)

Ruthlessness: Adopt a protectionist policy that stipulates 80% of the enrolment at the university must consist of local students (cost 250 gold, +3 happiness from the university)

Local decision: Allow the dean of the university to handle this (+1 diplomatic relations with Y)

Disclaimer: I'd like to apologize in advance if I am suggesting anything unfeasible (unfeasible in the sense that it can't be coded in the mod right now) The problem is I have more ideas than sense sometimes...

 

[Delgar]

Ah well since I'm currently thinking about this I might as well add a couple more...

[5] Tourism-related opportunity (triggers anytime after you build a World Wonder)

Description: The <name_of_world_wonder> you have built in <city_name> has attracted much attention and awe from around the globe. A recent report from your Tourism Board has indicated a massive year on year increase in the number of tourists for the foreseeable future.

Compassion: Build supporting infrastructure to complement <name_of_world_wonder> and push up its cultural status (+250 gold, +6 culture in city with the world wonder)

Ruthlessness: Build a theme park around the world wonder and charge exorbitant prices to tourists (+250 gold, +3 gold per turn in city with the wonder)

Local decision: Let your Tourism Board handle this matter (+1 gold and +1 culture in affected city)

[6] Overfishing of whales/fishes (triggers whenever your city is working a whales/fish resources)

Description: Overfishing has led to a declining whales/fishes population near the city of <city_name>. Environmentalists are clamouring for the government to push out initiatives to prevent overfishing, while the corporations are demanding that you support them with tax cuts.

Compassion: Issue a new regulation and create a governing authority to oversee and limit the amount of fishing that can be done per year (+250 gold, +3 happiness empire-wide)

Ruthlessness: Issue further tax rebates so that the corporations are able to invest in more advanced fishing technology (+250 gold, +3 food in the tile)

Local decision: Let the city governer manage the situation (+1 happiness empire-wide)

 

[albie_123]

All these ideas are great, in my opinion! Might require some slight balancing, but hey, what doesn't? I especially like the diplomatic theme. Hopefully it's possible to implement.

 

[Txurce]

Agreed that balancing aside, they add a lot of flavor.

 

[mitsho]

I think you can add them directly into one of those excel files. That also helps with the length of the texts, as you have a better oversight.

I guess we can't do Civilization Influence, since diplomacy does work rather differently. So either change them to City States or have it more generally.

I do agree that we need a lot more opportunities, the pool is rather small at the moment and I like yours, however they are all more modern ones. And I am just sick of the scout one. It's not an opportunity when you are guaranteed to get it.

So I guess we could either just add more and more like we are doing at the moment, or we could set up a tally of how many opportunities we need for a) each era and b) playing style. And then add on where we lack atm. Best separate them by triggers:

Units
Tile Improvements
Ressources / Tiles
Buildings / Wonders
City States
Social Policies

Tiles and Ressources are unimproved jumpstarts at the start of the game or maybe catastrophic events later on. They are also the only things we will have besides a scout at the start, thus needed to tip the balance in not having the scout opp every single game.
We will at all times have more units, tile improvements and buildings than City States or Social Policies, so they need to be weighted accordingly.
Buildings and units will be more numerous later, so the weighting should not be linear.

Btw. the monument opportunity and many else need to be reworded for the ancient age or just triggered by a later era.

 

[Delgar]

Hey, thanks for the feedback. I wasn't sure whether the opportunities I came up with would work with the mod. I'd be happy to add them to the excel file, but do I only add them to the 'Triggers' tab, or do I have to amend the other tabs as well....?

Anyway I was thinking we could have more than one event for the same unit, to make it less boring. For example, the scout.

Description: Your scout has travelled far and wide, braved numerous dangers and discovered many wondrous lands. After the years of exploration, it is time for him to return home. He has many tales to tell, and the local populace are eager to hear him speak.

Compassion: Reward the scout for his years of dedication and hard work, and allow him to regale your citizens with tales of his bravery and derring-do (cost 200 gold, either +2 culture or +2 happiness in capital, and +1 population)

Ruthlessness: Leverage the scout's experience and abilities by providing him with mandatory training and new weapons (cost 200 gold, upgrade to a new unit)

Local decision: Let the scout retire to civilian life (+1 population)

I admit this is a rather rough idea and might be rather unbalanced - I don't know enough about balancing so I have to leave it to the experts here. I'm just trying to come up with more than one event for each unit/tile/building so that it adds variety...

Also, the trigger would have to take place only after the scout has travelled a certain number of tiles (to fit in with the overall theme of this opportunity). Can this be coded in the mod?

 

[Thalassicus]

I do really like the concept of those and the descriptions. All the suggestions you made which don't affect diplomatic relations are possible. Unfortunately, the only diplomatic influence capabilities available to us are:

Get major civ mood

Set major civ mood

Get minor civ mood

Set minor civ mood

I wish I'd displayed this information more prominently; I feel bad that you went to all that effort for the diplomatic ones. Well, perhaps there's a way to adapt them to things we can do! I'm focused on bugfixes and fine tuning the public release at the moment, but I'll come back to this later today or tomorrow to provide more detailed feedback.