Opportunities

Just as a side note to my previous suggestions, my idea of negative yields would help to balance this issue. Ridiculous production would be countered by abysmal gold, or something along those lines.

That being said, that doesn't mean much. Extreme yields in general, balanced or not, are just silly.
 
One of the random events spawned some oil - on the same hex as a mountain :sad:

They do seem OP in general, given that they're just about all good and there are, I think, too many of them. Playing a standard speed/normal size map, with five cities (I was being peaceful), I had three wheats, two calendar resources, and one city had a number of production upgrades on mines, all in the ~270 turns I played, before knocking off for bed after getting Rocketry tech.
(Note - that was with 129, haven't had a chance to play with 130 yet)
 
I'm with the growing consensus here that Events in their current form are a bit too much. They are fun, though, and with a bit of work I definitely see VEM being better off for having them.

It does seem to make sense in terms of gameplay/fun to make most events positive, but perhaps a bit less powerful than they currently are. Certainly most events shouldn't happen more than once per player per game, and it would be nice to have some sense of balance of advantages gained through events across players.


Per-turn/percentage costs
Also, as is, the lump sum :c5gold:Gold costs add an unnatural-seeming incentive to keep cash on hand to the game. I can see temporary per-turn :c5gold:, :c5food:, :c5culture:, :c5science:, etc. costs (e.g., -50%:c5culture: or -50%:c5gold: for a few turns) working much more elegantly. I envision most Events looking something like this:

A new smelting process developed by the smithy in Istanbul shows great promise, but is potentially hazardous to workers.
-Devote research to making the process safer. (+4:c5production: per turn indefinitely, but -50%:c5science: for 20 turns)
-Push the process into production immediately, ignoring the health concerns. (+4:c5production: per turn indefinitely, but -33% surplus:c5food: for 20 turns)
-Let the local governor handle this. (+1:c5production: per turn indefinitely)

or

The colosseum in Istanbul is drawing record-breaking crowds!
-Direct resources towards hosting shows of patriotic propaganda. (+5:c5culture: indefinitely, but -50%:c5production: for 20 turns)
-Stage elaborate talent competitions to entertain the public. (+3:c5happy: indefinitely, but -50%:c5production: for 20 turns)
-Let the masses decide. (+3:c5happy: for 20 turns)

[all these % costs are for the affected city (Istanbul) only, not empire-wide.]

, allowing the player to choose either the benefit or the cost with the first two options – or opt out by picking a third option offering a smaller benefit at no cost.

There would be similar negative events as well (where the costs clearly outweigh the benefits, and the third option gives a smaller negative but no counterbalancing benefit), though fewer in number.

(Yes, this could lead to a lot of per-city micro-ing whenever an Event occurs, but 1) micro-ing your city to produce less hammers to avoid the penalty still means you're incurring a cost, and 2) if Events only occur every 25 turns or so, that's not a huge deal, IMHO. Ideally, you'd be able to check out the affected city before making your choice. A notice would pop up after the per-turn penalties stopped: "The talent competitions in Istanbul's coliseum have become self-sufficient and no longer require the city's :c5production:.")


Luck balance
Even this would have to be balanced to control for luck though. (I just quit a game I started with Egypt going for a Culture victory because, on turn 17, a Monument controversy randomly gave me +6 :c5culture:Culture per turn in Thebes. I wouldn't have felt I earned it even if I did win!) The very element of player choice that makes Events fun and interesting means that they're sure to net benefit players, so it's important to make sure good things don't all accrue to a single lucky player.

The most elegant solution I could come up with is introducing dependence based on some kind of "past luck" variable, call it d, that measures how unlucky each player has been so far this game (or, equivalently, how much you "deserve" some good fortune soon). It'd work something like this:

Each turn...
if + event, decrease d by 30 [if a good event happens, you're much less due for some good luck next turn]
if no event, increase d by 1 [if nothing happens, you're slightly more due for some good luck next turn]
if - event, increase d by 30 [if something bad happens, you're much more due for some good luck next turn]
with
probability of a good event = 0.03 * 1.02^d
probability of a bad event = 0.01 * .95^d

, so that each Civ would have a good event around every, say, 25 turns or so. But a Civ experiencing a couple good events close in time would probably have to wait a while for the next one (unless balanced out by a negative event), and a Civ hammered by a couple bad events in succession would likely get some kind of helping hand soon.


edit: I realize all this would be no small deal to implement! Events are moving VEM into the right direction; I'd just like to see them tweaked a bit, and I'm just saying, if I had unlimited time and technical expertise to do it, this is what I'd try.
 
Agreed with wobuffet entirely, and his example is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. I'm glad someone could put it into words! He also brought up micro-ing these decisions. This will be a matter of taste, of course, but I find this not to be a bad thing.

I know I've said it already. But I strongly urge to take a look at events from Grand Strategy games as a reference.
 
Having taken a look at the excel-file on page 2 with the list of events, there don't seem to be negative events yet, right? There probably needs to be a bigger pool as well which diminishes the problem of super-quarrys as well. (though there shouldn't be two events on the same tile). Also I think there needs to be a bit more variety in events, best to take a look at the events from civ4 BTW. So, for example an event can also give money and cost science or culture, have more with Units and especially this event systems seems perfect for the City State system! My List of possible events:

  • Free Walls (or small buildings)
  • Pilgrimages (small amount of money received)
  • Trade Routes "pimped up"
  • Migrations (add one pop to a city)
  • "Free" Experience/Promotion/Upgrade for units (balance and costs per unit?)
  • Free influence points with city states
  • Espionage: Gain knowledge of an enemy city, or some science points
  • Strategic Ressource found.
  • Bonus to wonder/unit/building building (City only of course)
  • Call for Peace by own population (bonus if you sign peace the same turn between you and someone or between two parties) // Crusade/Jihad Call (bonus for attacking someone)
  • Reveal Barbarian Camps
  • Economic Boom (one less upkeep for each building for x turns - so if you don't make sure you will fall into the negative when the boom ends)
  • Foreign Aid

And negative/mixed ones:
  • Tornadoes, Tsunamis and Earthquakes destroying buildings
  • Corruption rising: +1 upkeep per city
  • Volcanoes (has a small positive effect of adding one food even when destroying various installments)
  • Strikes (lose one turn of production)
  • Scout/Ship lost at sea/in the wilderness (Units gets teleported back to capital, not lost as that might be too harsh in the beginning)
  • Influence lost with city state
  • Religious Schisms (Unhappiness gained, but culture received?)
  • Inflation (costs of buying building rise for the next 25 turns)
  • Supergau at the Nuclear Plant
  • The Black Death (open borders are BAAD!!)

It also might be interesting to tie them a bit in with Social Policies, like weighing the chances depending on your policies or having some events only unlocked when having a certain policy (a Crusade can only be called when in Theocracy).

Also the weighing of the events seems to be the big unknown here in general. The factors should be: "Dependency" (earlier events, not on same plot), Balance (not three bad ones in a row, various civs), Playstyle (measured with social policies, either helping the playstyle or from another one to balance).
 
I'm already in general agreement with wobuffet and albie's approach, but would condense it all a bit more. My guidelines, which include some things Thal already intends to do in v131, would be:

  • 0 events before T51
  • 1 event per tile
  • higher price per event
  • more negative events
  • link events to playstyle
One of the original Events mod creators offered to work on the playstyle option.

Where I disagree with wobuffet is in the addressing of luck. Balancing so you eventually get bad luck (if you've had a run of good) would feel not just artificial, but like a sword of Damocles. That's no fun. If the price of an event is brought more in line with the benefit, and they don't occur too early or too often, then I don't think luck is going to meaningfully distort the results of a game.
 
I agree with Txurce. However I don't think you should have to pay a higher price for "Good" events and have a higher number of "Bad" events. One or the other.

Bad events balance good in theory. If I get a plus 3 population boost fine. At some point I may get a minus 3 population hit.
 
I agree with Txurce. However I don't think you should have to pay a higher price for "Good" events and have a higher number of "Bad" events. One or the other.

Bad events balance good in theory. If I get a plus 3 population boost fine. At some point I may get a minus 3 population hit.

I see your point, and almost changed what I wrote to address it. My preference would be to have the positive events be both minor and expensive enough that luck isn't viewed as a noteworthy factor.
 
Good luck in life such as meeting someone interesting, getting an unexpected raise at work, and winning the lottery is fun and exciting! Bad luck like unexpected breakups, getting fired, or losing an investment is frustrating and depressing.

We play games to have some exciting fun! I've realized "opportunity" better explains what I'm going for here. This is why I design these like citystate interactions, costing instant gold for positive lasting outcomes. Even if the event has a negative aspect like protests, the outcomes can be positive, such as reducing crime or improving education. It's an opportunity to improve society. The central government can invest further in the opportunity to get better results, or let the local authorities handle it with fewer resources, lower costs, and lower rewards.

The opportunity system is still in development. In retrospect I should have released it as a beta, but hindsight is 20/20. :lol: I'm posting updates as each phase of development completes, instead of all at the end, so everyone can get an early taste. I've added some more details below to hopefully answer some questions. I'm listening to all the feedback, and will include a cost increase in the next version. :thumbsup:

The steps of the plan are:
  1. Import the existing events mod created by Hipfot, Skodkim, Spatzimaus, and VeyDer.
  2. Update the choices with basic early drafts of opportunities chosen for their historical significance.
  3. Update the opportunity selection system. This is what I'm working on now, detailed more at the end of this post.
    • Prevent repeat occurrences of the same opportunity on the same tile.
    • Change from independent to dependent probabilities, so as time passes without seeing an opportunity, odds rise of it finally appearing.
  4. Add more complex opportunities which respond to different aspects of the game, such as units, citystates, combat outcomes, diplomacy, etc.
Each phase includes adjustments to game balance. For example, in the original screenshot on page 2 you can see the central-government options cost only 50:c5gold:. Before even releasing the new opportunities I realized that was too low, so I raised it to 100:c5gold:. I'll try 150:c5gold: next, and will continue altering the balance until it gets in a good range.


===========

Here's some details on step #3, the opportunity selection system I'm coding right now, to be released later this week. Say we're in the Medieval era on standard game speed. With the new system we get 1 opportunity every 25 turns, at a random time during those 25 turns.

It works like this:
  1. Each turn has a rising chance of an opportunity.
  2. If the chance happens:
    • Run an opportunity.
    • Block future opportunities.
    • Continue incrementing the chance.
  3. When the stored chance reaches 100%:
    • Reset chance to 0%.
    • Unblock opportunities.
For example, if we're at turn 100 in the Medieval era, things might go like this:

turn: chance
100: 0%
101: 4%
102: 8%
103: 12%
104: 16%
105: 20%

  • 20% chance randomly happens this turn.
  • Do an opportunity.
  • Block future opportunities.
106: 25%: blocked
...
123: 92%: blocked
124: 96%: blocked
125: 100%:

  • Reset to 0%.
  • Unblock opportunities.
126: 0%
127: 4%
128: 8%: chance opportunity occurs
129: 16%: blocked
130: 20%: blocked
131: 24%: blocked
... repeating ...


The increase in +% chance per turn depend on era and game speed. For normal speed I'm considering these odds:



This means that in the Industrial era we will always have 1 opportunity every 15 turns. It randomly occurs earlier or later in that 15-turn timeframe, but the average remains constant. After 60 turns we'd have precisely 4 happen.
 
That's what I figured you were more or less doing. Although v130 is too generous overall, it's still a blast. Also, I recall Spatzimaus saying he could help with #4, if desired.

What needs addressing first, in my opinion, is the coding error that gives major tech boosts for minor happiness gains (as detailed elsewhere).
 
Something I could really use help with is details for new opportunities. If you have an idea and would like to see it added to VEM, check out the revised original post. :beer:
 
I would personally prefer that events with strikes, explosions or other potential negative effects have negative results if no money is spent, such as -1 yield. If no money is spent, then future events on the hex would not be prohibited for that event occurrence.

Also, gold expenditure might be either the standard or a percentage (e.g., 5% & 2% for the options) of the treasury, whichever is greater. Rates could vary with the potential event yields, depending on the yield type.

Where are economic recession/depression events?

Caveat: I haven't played a game yet with the events.
 
The first batch of targeted just improvements and buildings, so I could spend time rebuilding the selection system. Economic booms and busts seem more like a player-targeted thing affecting the whole empire.

Do you have an idea for descriptions and options for such economic events? :)
 
The first batch of events targeted just improvements and buildings, so I could spend time rebuilding the event selection system. Economic booms and busts seem more like a player-targeted thing affecting the whole empire. Do you have an idea for descriptions and options for economic events? :)

Speaking in the abstract (and tying the rest of the game together) I would make them era- and policy-dependent. In effect, treat a policy the way you do an improvement. And then have a major once-an-era event like the rise of feudalism, centralized government, monotheism, etc. The danger here is making the net result the equivalent of a free policy. Again, fairly priced alternatives seem like the right approach - high enough than you may opt for nothing at all (even with a slight nerf) more often than we do in v130.

Specifically referring to economic events, tariffs, piracy, royal marriages, religious conversions, and government overthrows, as well as the more obvious new colonies, all could fit the bill.

Also, I like Jaybe's notion that doing nothing results in a mild penalty. Combined with more commensurate pricing, this could be all the "negativity" we need.
 
The first batch of events targeted just improvements and buildings, so I could spend time rebuilding the event selection system. Economic booms and busts seem more like a player-targeted thing affecting the whole empire.



By the way, I REALLY dislike you for making me choose between 6 beakers and 6 hammers. I agonize over that one every time.
 
@Txurce
Letting locals handle an event is different from doing nothing. Decisions are made and things happen, but without a strong investment from the central government. :)

@kc_bandit
I love games where we really have to think about decisions we make. :D
 
@Txurce
Letting locals handle an event is different from doing nothing. Decisions are made and things happen, but without a strong investment from the central government. :)

Yes, but do they do a good job of it -- and what does it cost!?
Perhaps jawboning or negotiations will work, but maybe NOT; and eventual resolution may involve diversion of resources (possibly NOT gold -- randomize it!), and still not work out.

I think it's called the law of unintended consequences.
When we initiate a combat we are given a PREDICTED result, but the result often varies. In a mature Events environment there should (IMHO :)) be at least a small (20-30%) probability that the effect is marginally different than indicated in the initial event dialog (as long as we get a message that it WAS different).
 
I think this was mentioned near the beginning of the thread, but I would really like to see some variation in the trade-offs and having events cost things other than :c5gold:. As it stands now, there's a strong incentive to keep excess cash around which is fine, but what about excess happiness, science, culture, etc? Varying the cost would make you think more.

Here's an example alteration to an existing event.

New Production Process

A new dangerous process to increase factory production has been invented, and the owners want to put it in place, but workers at the plant are concerned about safety.

  • Support research efforts to find a safer process.
    Cost: 5:c5science: for 30 turns
    Benefit: +2:c5production:, +1:) for 30 turns
  • Fund the implementation of the process, safety be damned!
    Cost: +1:( and 5:c5gold: for 30 turns
    Benefit: +3:c5production:
  • Let them work it out themselves.
    Benefit: +1:c5production:
As stated above, it might work better to scale the costs based on the era. Notice also the per turn costs rather than a lump sum. It may not be as logical since you get the benefit immediately, but it adds variety and choice. Maybe the benefit should be delayed to the end of the cost or there could be immediate costs and benefits as well as final ones. That might make it a bit too complicated, though.
 
So, what are the factors that should go into determining an event? I need to know the general system before being able to design/phrase them as detailled in Thal's post above. The main questions for me are:

  1. Timewise: Should they be generally possible during the whole game, be possible after/before Technology X or era-wise
  2. Social Policy-Wise. The same as above. Namely how many general ones do we need, how many specific ones?
  3. Should they normall cost gold or are there other payoffs thinkable (unhappiness for a few turns)
  4. Should there be events that just offer a bonus/malus and no costs/benefits or does there need to be a decision all the time? (Like a small golden age for one turn)
  5. How negative can they become? Just minor setbacks?
  6. Can there be probabilities? Like "Scientific Breakthrough: 100 beakers immediately or invest 100 gold for a 10% chance for 50 beakers more" or "Slave Revolt (unhappiness and no production in the city): Send Army (cost and ends it) or let the mayor do it (no cost, 50 % chance of event still there the next turn, goes on like this for a few turns)
  7. The benefits can be written in percentages, right? (so to make it era independent, like scientific breakthrough gives you 20% of remaining beakers for this technology)

Especially the era-specifity is important for the phrasing ;)
 
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