Opportunities

[Thalassicus]

I've updated the original post with more information.

The main questions for me are:

1. Timewise: Should they be generally possible during the whole game, be possible after/before Technology X or era-wise
2. Social Policy-Wise. The same as above. Namely how many general ones do we need, how many specific ones?
3. Should they normal cost gold or are there other payoffs thinkable (unhappiness for a few turns)
4. Should there be events that just offer a bonus/malus and no costs/benefits or does there need to be a decision all the time? (Like a small golden age for one turn)
5. How negative can they become? Just minor setbacks?
6. Can there be probabilities? Like "Scientific Breakthrough: 100 beakers immediately or invest 100 gold for a 10% chance for 50 beakers more" or "Slave Revolt (unhappiness and no production in the city): Send Army (cost and ends it) or let the mayor do it (no cost, 50 % chance of event still there the next turn, goes on like this for a few turns)
7. The benefits can be written in percentages, right? (so to make it era independent, like scientific breakthrough gives you 20% of remaining beakers for this technology)

Especially the era-specificity is important for the phrasing

1. Any prerequisite requirement (or none) is acceptable.
2. Could you clarify what you mean by general and specific?
3. Instant gold is best because it uses the same mechanism as citystates: pay gold for an over-time bonus. It's difficult to make the AI analyze more complex or over-time costs with our current modding tools, because most of the AI is done in the game core only Firaxis has access to. We don't have direct access to the yield functions either, so per-turn yield costs would cripple the AI.
4. I'd like each opportunity to have a difficult choice between two moral viewpoints. The goal is to add depth to gameplay, not just random luck.
5. Each opportunity should have positive or neutral outcomes, for the reasons described in post #49.
6. Random outcomes are acceptable.
7. Either fixed or percentage values are acceptable.

 

[Txurce]

I think this was mentioned near the beginning of the thread, but I would really like to see some variation in the trade-offs and having events cost things other than .

I think something along the lines of your example above would make Events even more interesting.

As stated above, it might work better to scale the costs based on the era. Notice also the per turn costs rather than a lump sum. It may not be as logical since you get the benefit immediately, but it adds variety and choice. Maybe the benefit should be delayed to the end of the cost or there could be immediate costs and benefits as well as final ones. That might make it a bit too complicated, though.

Per-turn costs are almost always better (as with research) and would be with Events, too.

Scaling costs per era makes sense - but the same applies for gains.

I would add a third factor: benefits always (or almost always) expire. Most of the Events would lose their luster over time, so making them finite is more realistic. But it also holds down "bonus inflation" - the cumulative effect of Events making the game easier to win than it was.

 

[mitsho]

Great, fast answer.

Regarding Point 2.: For example something to do with Religion, say a Monk has become a Hermit on a Mountain. Should that only happen when I have opened Piety as it is connected to that, or does it then become too rare an "opportunity"? But does it make sense for a hermit to appear "without" Religion? For example a Call for Crusade seems strange without Theocracy...

Maybe the solution is to again give probabilities, so that a "Piety"-Event has a bigger chance to appear when you have opened Piety but may appear else as well, just with a smaller chance.

(Will Events have different base probabilities of appearing?)

 

[Zaldron]

I would personally prefer that events with strikes, explosions or other potential negative effects have negative results if no money is spent, such as -1 yield. If no money is spent, then future events on the hex would not be prohibited for that event occurrence.

This doesn't add choice though, it adds a perverse incentive to hoard a minimum amount of gold, which doesn't sound fun.

 

[Jaybe]

@Zaldron
But it reinforces a life lesson (save some money for a rainy day). Prudence would like that.
I wouldn't want to think that you were one of those who hocked themselves to the hilt to buy a house as an investment just before the bubble burst.

Yes, I DO think that a little gold reserves are a VERY good thing. Might need to panic-buy a unit in case of a DoW out of the blue.

 

[Zaldron]

@Zaldron
But it reinforces a life lesson (save some money for a rainy day). Prudence would like that.
I wouldn't want to think that you were one of those who hocked themselves to the hilt to buy a house as an investment just before the bubble burst.

Yes, I DO think that a little gold reserves are a VERY good thing. Might need to panic-buy a unit in case of a DoW out of the blue.

But the game already penalizes me for not having gold to rush-buy, there's no need to add a random event to DOUBLE penalize me for that.

 

[apocalypse105]

So what are the consequences saying something bad? Does it display on the screan? didn't play with the new version yet

 

[Thalassicus]

I agree with Zaldron. Good luck is fun and exciting, while bad luck is frustrating and depressing. One of the primary goals of VEM is fun (and games in general) so I prefer good luck.

@apocalypse105
Could you rephrase your question? I don't understand what you're asking.

A "Piety"-Event has a bigger chance to appear when you have opened Piety but may appear else as well, just with a smaller chance.

I like this idea. For simplicity's sake right now opportunities have just these checks:

• Does the target exist?
• Has it run for that target yet?
• Probability to occur.

More complex stuff can be added later once the basics are done. I've completed the code framework for step #3, will fill out details tomorrow, and should have a new version released sometime between Thursday and Saturday (depending on how long it takes to debug).

 

[Txurce]

I agree with Zaldron. Good luck is fun and exciting, while bad luck is frustrating and depressing. One of the primary goals of VEM is fun (and games in general) so I prefer good luck.

Sid Meier said something similar. I agree, but also don't like so much essentially free "good luck" that my progress feels unearned. That's why I like the idea of not getting the positive "b" if I choose the positive "a," and there being a commensurate price for choosing anything other than "c." It's also why I suggested that all improvement events expire at some point.

 

[albie_123]

Is there a possibility of events altering unit bonuses?

One of my favourite events from BTS was the 'advanced bows' event that gave all your archers a free promotion. The reason I loved it was that it made the player consider a military route even if they hadn't previously considered it.

I would love to see some kind of event that follows the same idea - maybe something to do with military mobilisation in the face of international pressure (Along the lines of the Greeks strengthening / uniting against the Persians, or the Germans producing larger amounts of battleships in the late 1800's / early 1900's), where your investment gives an XP boost or strength bonus to units created in the city. Once you've gotten the more complex conditions for opportunity triggers you could even make it happen when war is declared or a denouncement against the Civ is made.

 

[Txurce]

I've in my second game with Opportunities now. In the second, I lacked the 150g to take advantage of it the first three times it came up. This is probably more the norm very early on and when expanding quickly. Would it be feasible and beneficial to make the cost per turn (or optionally so, even at a premium)?

 

[Thalassicus]

@Txurce
I don't know how to get the AI to properly evaluate gold per turn costs.


@albie
Free promotions are certainly a great idea. A declaration of war against us is a fantastic example of finding positive opportunities from a negative trigger. The question is how to create two diametrically opposed options. Perhaps something along the lines of:

• Economic - invest in retooling our factories for war, giving a production bonus.
• Militaristic - institute a draft to instantly create some new military units.
• Neutral - capitalize on the surge of public support, possibly a happiness bonus.

What about a triggers leading to war as well? Perhaps an AI settles a city very close to one of our own. Hostilities break out between citizens of the two cities. The options could be something along the lines of (wording not final):

• Push for economic sanctions, giving influence penalties between the intruder and other leaders or citystates.
• Stir up nationalistic sentiment to promote hostile anti-neighbor policies, possibly giving us some instant border expansion.
• Let the mayor handle this.

There's also the opposite way to approach this. Instead of looking at gameplay circumstances and thinking of real-world explanations, we can look at famous moments in history and figure out how to craft ingame opportunities from them.

There's lots of historical examples where two diametrically opposed groups share tense borders, and two ways to handle it: promote further hostilities or try for reconciliation. An example of the latter is the North-South Korean family reunion efforts in recent years, to give families separated by the border a chance to meet again. Say in Civ we used to be at a war with a neighbor we're now at peace with, but diplomatic relations are sour. Some crisis occurs because of actions of our neighbor. Opportunities like this could be ways to repair relations:

• Propose a joint-run facility for families separated by the war to meet from across the border. This could give a diplomatic bonus between us and the neighbor.
• Focus on the actions of our neighbor which caused the crisis and show dramatic displays of military force, giving us a diplomatic bonus with our neighbor's enemies, or perhaps some form of military bonus.
• Calm the situation through normal diplomatic channels, giving a small influence bonus with the leader.

Some other ideas for opportunities from history we could take in two directions:

• If we have Monarchy and also get Freedom, other leaders with Monarchy are uneasy about our revolution.
• First person to build some new building or unit might get a special bonus, like the HMS Dreadnaught.
• Washington Naval Conference: first major disarmament agreement in history.
• The May Fourth Movement: turning point in Chinese history.
• Chesapeake-Leopard_Affair leading up to the War of 1812.
• The July Crisis leading up to WW1.

 

[Txurce]

There's also the opposite way to approach this. Instead of looking at gameplay circumstances and thinking of real-world explanations, we can look at famous moments in history and figure out how to make game events from them.

This is a very big idea, definitely worth pursuing in my opinion. It's probably very time consuming in that ideally it matches up with specific, fluid circumstances - but it might be something to focus on pre-G&K once we settle on the WWGD and tall/wide changes.

 

[Sneaks]

Don't forget we can easily add "Building Additions" now as well.

Ideas I had:

Statue of Zeus is built somewhere in world:

"Your citizens in Madrid have been inspired to worship Zeus"
- Support the Faith - 150 Shrine of Zeus addition constructed in Temple (+2, +5 )
- Persecute them - 25 -1 Gladiatorial Games at the Colosseum for 10 turns (+5 )
- Stay out of the Matter - +1 in Madrid

 

[Txurce]

That's both hilarious and a good idea.

 

[Thalassicus]

I like that idea Sneaks! In G&K it could even be tweaked to trigger based on neighbors' religions or something.

 

[Sneaks]

My thoughts exactly. I am working on another version of CityView at the moment to even better approach the look I want in regards to Additions, as well as making new specialists FAR easier to add (important for a few Civs I have been working on). I also want to make building additions their own table as opposed to an alteration of Buildings right now to get around the godawful mod load order issues.

 

[albie_123]

• If we have Monarchy and also get Freedom, other leaders with Monarchy are uneasy about our revolution.
• First person to build some new building or unit might get a special bonus, like the HMS Dreadnaught.
• Washington Naval Conference: first major disarmament agreement in history.
• The May Fourth Movement: turning point in Chinese history.
• Chesapeake-Leopard_Affair leading up to the War of 1812.
• The July Crisis leading up to WW1.

These are all great ideas! I wouldn't mind writing up more fleshed out descriptions of these events and their choices, if you'll let me. (From my own experience with large modding projects, the less 'idea guys', the better ) I'd also love to see diplomatic events in a much larger number. Diplomacy is still one of the most lacking aspects of Civ V, along with the Wartime AI.

 

[Thalassicus]

Sure Albie! Just check the guidelines on post #1. Seek's idea is a great example:

"Inspired citizens in Madrid wish to worship Zeus."

• Historical significance.
  Represents religious turning points.
  .
• A way to improve or reform society.
  Enhances one of two factions in the empire.
  .
• Ethical decisions.
  Embrace or persecute?

Opportunities in society present moral choices, such as:

• Invest in compassion, artistry, and conservation.
  Support the Faith
  150 cost
  +2 +5 bonus
  Shrine of Zeus addition constructed in Temple.
  .
• Invest in ruthlessness, militarism, and resource exploitation.
  Persecute Them
  25 1 cost
  +5 bonus
  Gladiatorial Games at the Colosseum for 10 turns.
  .
• Let local authorities decide A or B, with less cost and effect.
  +1 bonus
  Stay out of the matter.

I lowered option C since 1 ≈ 3.

 

[albie_123]

Writing up some ideas for some diplomatic opportunities. But I have two questions, regarding Diplomacy:

Firstly, is it possible to make an opportunity choice force a major Civ AI to have a new negative / positive relationship modifier towards you?

Secondly, if it is possible to do the above, is it possible to do the same for an AI - AI relationship? I think it would make for some very interesting and fun opportunities if the player could play two leaders against one another, or make friends of two enemies! This certainly has grounds in history as well - the Spanish rallying the warring mesoamerican tribes against the Aztecs, for example, or the very situational circumstances that led to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

EDIT: Just thought I'd say, making ideas and choices for events is incredibly fun

It's certainly enjoyable helping on the more theoretical side of a mod. If modding Civ V is anything like modding STALKER: SoC, my experience leads me to believe it's not nearly as fun being the guy doing the coding.