Optimization Revealed

[a_propagandist]

@ greenpeace
How would large particle accelerators be built? Bridges? Laboratories? Road systems? Infrastructure? Machinery? Factories?

 

[Chazumi]

Why not follow my system where incentives are not allowed (except as a last resort in stopping physical, emotional, and intellectual damage) so that people only produce what they see as worth the effort of producing? That way the produce can be wantedly concentrated, and nobody has to subjected to such extreme measures. If you want a little more detailedd account of my system here you go:
Society should be decentralized (to the point where a community is completely self-goverened). The decentralized government must be made of all people able to communicate in the community. These people make decisions by the democratic process in which the highest majorty agrees with the decision. The two types of decisions it is allowed to make will be:
1. Whether or not a person (in the community) intentionally has, or is, or eminently will be causing harm and what to do about it. Harm is defined as anything that inhibits a persons ability to do something other than inhibit someone elses ability to do something (the primary way is offering of incentives and other forms of authority). Also harming is inflicitng emotional, physical, mental damage. The established authority is the only entity that can legally offer incentives to counter harm. If there is a situation were it is physically impossible for one to not harm another than the authority must attempt to reduce the harm as much as possible.
Also harm is taking away the produce of another person/groups production without their (un-incentived) consent. Also harm is not allowing natural resources to be shared fairly (the authority decides fairness).
2. Whether to include a new member to a community or not.

That is the most hippie-ized form of government I have ever heard of. And what about the communities that don't have much landspace, ghettos from new york for instance, for farmland and self-sustainment? who is going to stop them from using all the pistols and automatic rifles they have stored up? What about the drug lord who uses his drug-infested army to take over other communities and force them at gunpoint to provide for them? There needs to be a massive government to maintain all these "little farming communities" that you speak of.

 

[a_propagandist]

Like I've mentioned before, who watches the watchers?

 

[Chazumi]

Like I've mentioned before, who watches the watchers?

I have been waiting for this question so I apologize if I missed it.

The watchers are watched by the watchers, who are watched by the watchers, who are watched by the watchers, who are watched by the watchers.

There is no official group who monitors the others, though there is a small subsection who continually monitors their personal job fields performance, on an individual level, and is reported upwards to a certain level. This is not their only position, just a sub-task in their field. Everyone has access to records, which are heavily maintained and uncorruptable, and these can be reported to any of the thousands of watchdog groups, which will then administer procedures for termination, if indeed someone is violating the laws of termination.

 

[Perfection]

@Perfection: Morality is subjective, and therefore meaningless in a discussion such as this.

Piss no! Just because it's subjective doesnt' mean it's not important! Otherwise it would be okay for me to beat the living hell out of you.

Get that liberal mumbo-jumbo out of your head, morality matters!

It may be important at helping to bring down Chazumi's system, but the morality of a system is entirely unimportant in regards to its effectiveness.

It sure as hell does, a system that sustains itself but forces everyone to live in hellish conditions is a crapass system, because it forces people to live in hellish conditions!

 

[greenpeace]

@ greenpeace
How would large particle accelerators be built? Bridges? Laboratories? Road systems? Infrastructure? Machinery? Factories?

They wouldn't, unless the people wanted them so much they would be willing to build them.

That is the most hippie-ized form of government I have ever heard of. And what about the communities that don't have much landspace, ghettos from new york for instance, for farmland and self-sustainment? who is going to stop them from using all the pistols and automatic rifles they have stored up? What about the drug lord who uses his drug-infested army to take over other communities and force them at gunpoint to provide for them? There needs to be a massive government to maintain all these "little farming communities" that you speak of.

First of all ghettos are very near impossible because the effort of building massive cement and metal buildings is needless (not to mention all the hell of maintaining them). Second, an army of people wishing destruction is very unrealistic since what benefit would there be in creating one? Even if there was an army than what is preventing communities from dealing with them? Also, why haven't you gotten rid of that horrendous equation and replaced it with the actual equation.

 

[a_propagandist]

I have been waiting for this question so I apologize if I missed it.

The watchers are watched by the watchers, who are watched by the watchers, who are watched by the watchers, who are watched by the watchers.

There is no official group who monitors the others, though there is a small subsection who continually monitors their personal job fields performance, on an individual level, and is reported upwards to a certain level. This is not their only position, just a sub-task in their field. Everyone has access to records, which are heavily maintained and uncorruptable, and these can be reported to any of the thousands of watchdog groups, which will then administer procedures for termination, if indeed someone is violating the laws of termination.

For those performing the sub-task, the act of monitoring cannot be adequately monitored. Why would someone perform said sub-task such when they could just pretend to do it and implicate some innocents? Couldn't the watchdog groups do that? Just randomly accuse from time to time? To meet quotas? Then, they can reap the benefits of their jobs and not really do anything. The guys monitoring these watchdog groups could very well be doing the same thing. And so on and so on.

For another thing, if the records are public, does that mean you will allow people to earn extra benefits from catching those who are supposed to be terminated? And if so, couldn't they just randomly accuse? To get the bonus?

 

[a_propagandist]

They wouldn't, unless the people wanted them so much they would be willing to build them.


First of all ghettos are very near impossible because the effort of building massive cement and metal buildings is needless. Second, an army of people wishing destruction is very unrealistic since what benefit would there be in creating one? Even if there was an army than what is preventing communities from dealing with them? Also, why haven't you gotten rid of that horrendous equation and replaced it with the actual equation.

So, humanity will go back to being tribes? In a world where subsistence is ubiquitous, a democracy can't survive. Culture and arts can't survive. In essence, people will fight to survive, to survive. To mate and sleep and eat.

 

[Perfection]

Optimization is the apex, the epitome of human creation, a self sustaining governmenting body that leaves nobody behind,

Except those it kills...

eliminates waste,

Waste rules! Like right now I'm wasting my time with this silly thread, and it rules!

and ensures that human civilization is maintained until the unforeseeable future.

Maintainence is for trucks, civilization deserves much more then maintainence.

 

[greenpeace]

So, humanity will go back to being tribes? In a world where subsistence is ubiquitous, a democracy can't survive. Culture and arts can't survive. In essence, people will fight to survive, to survive. To mate and sleep and eat.

Um, only if people perferred that to the work of permaculture (which is similar to agriculture except it is as close to no maintenance as possible so it would be much more atuned to such a society). I say permaculture since farming is the difference between everyone struggling for survival and an easy supply of food.

 

[Chazumi]

They wouldn't, unless the people wanted them so much they would be willing to build them.


First of all ghettos are very near impossible because the effort of building massive cement and metal buildings is needless (not to mention all the hell of maintaining them). Second, an army of people wishing destruction is very unrealistic since what benefit would there be in creating one? Even if there was an army than what is preventing communities from dealing with them? Also, why haven't you gotten rid of that horrendous equation and replaced it with the actual equation.

Let me just say if I woke up and this was the new system of government and we had a community meeting, I would be the first one to speak at the first meeting. It would go like this:

Me: "Hello, my name is Chazumi, and this is how it's going to be from now on."
Random Neighbor Guy: "Um, I really think we should do it this way."
Me: *Pulls out S&W .357 Magnum with HP Rounds*, BANG!! BANG!! BANG!!
Me: "Any other suggestions?"

And who would stop me? Immediately after that act there would be those who would immediately side with me out of terror and my regime of terror would start. Home raids, hoarding of weapons, we would go from neighborhood to neighborhood and exponentially increase ourselves until there was nothing left to pillage...and how is this unrealistic? Sure beats farming 12 hours a day and hoping for a good crop when all I gotta do is pull a trigger.

And for the final time, I don't know the equation I am just the initiator of the Assimilation movement, not the creator of the Optimal Equation. I am the guy so detached from humanity he is able to tip the first dominoe.

@AP, just because you are implicated doesn't mean automatic convicion and sentencing, cross referencing with continued monitoring will be ensured, and even if you were just implicated falsely, the person who falsely implicated would be terminated, and you would be watched like a hawk until deemed non-Optimal to do so.

 

[greenpeace]

Let me just say if I woke up and this was the new system of government and we had a community meeting

This already is wrong because you can't be forced into this system without artificial incentive which is banned. But anyway:

I would be the first one to speak at the first meeting. It would go like this:

Me: "Hello, my name is Chazumi, and this is how it's going to be from now on."
Random Neighbor Guy: "Um, I really think we should do it this way."
Me: *Pulls out S&W .357 Magnum with HP Rounds*, BANG!! BANG!! BANG!!
Me: "Any other suggestions?"

And who would stop me?

Well everyone with adequate force.
Also, Random Neighboor Guy can't say "I think we should do it this way" because nobody can be told what to do except in the case that they have commited a crime (So I guess of RNG was offering his opinion on what to do over a crime than it might happen).

Immediately after that act there would be those who would immediately side with me out of terror and my regime of terror would start.

Or people would realize you are a phychopath with a gun and flee to a safe haven to fight back or just kill you right there if they had a gun.

Home raids, hoarding of weapons, we would go from neighborhood to neighborhood and exponentially increase ourselves until there was nothing left to pillage...and how is this unrealistic?

Because it would be easy to stop you.

Sure beats farming 12 hours a day and hoping for a good crop when all I gotta do is pull a trigger.

Farming 12 hours a day is absolutely unrealistic because people would much rather use permaculture where there really is extremely little to no maintenance and even if they used traditional farming the bulk of people would be farming (or else starve, unless people share) bringing the hours down.

 

[Sharwood]

Nope. The system failed because R. Daneel Olivaw was pushing it along. When he created Gaia, the whole thing just broke down.

I haven't read the last book, I think you just gave it away for me.

 

[Chazumi]

This already is wrong because you can't be forced into this system without artificial incentive which is banned.

Well then this doesn't differentiate itself from Optimization, except for the fact that there is no negative effect of refusal to adopt the system, whereas Optimization will terminate you.

Well everyone with adequate force.
Also, Random Neighboor Guy can't say "I think we should do it this way" because nobody can be told what to do except in the case that they have commited a crime (So I guess of RNG was offering his opinion on what to do over a crime than it might happen).

The theory that I posed was "If I woke up tomorrow in a place like this". I don't know too many people on the block with a moderate stockpile of weapons and ammunition, not to mention body armor capable of deflecting automatic kalishnikov rounds, along with tourniquets, israeli bandages, and enough hextend and saline solution to hydrate a small army. And as far as Random Neighbor Guy, he totally has the right in ANY society to say screw you when looking down the barrel of another mans gun, doesn't mean it will matter much when he's dead.

Or people would realize you are a phychopath with a gun and flee to a safe haven to fight back or just kill you right there if they had a gun.

True. But firefights usually have a winner. Not always, but usually. Not to say I would win all of them.

Because it would be easy to stop you.

I guess... I mean I'm only trained to kill right?

Farming 12 hours a day is absolutely unrealistic because people would much rather use permaculture where there really is extremely little to no maintenance and even if they used traditional farming the bulk of people would be farming (or else starve, unless people share) bringing the hours down.

Ummm... I must have been playing hookey the day we had our permaculture class in high school, because I can barely get my cucumbers in the back yard to grow. Plus killing you, taking your food and resources, not to mention your wife just sounds so much cooler right? That is probably the viking in me talking though.

 

[Sharwood]

Piss no! Just because it's subjective doesnt' mean it's not important! Otherwise it would be okay for me to beat the living hell out of you.

Get that liberal mumbo-jumbo out of your head, morality matters!

It sure as hell does, a system that sustains itself but forces everyone to live in hellish conditions is a crapass system, because it forces people to live in hellish conditions!

There is no point to this discussion. You believe morality is important. I don't. We're not going to change each other's minds, so move on.

 

[Sharwood]

Chazumi and greenpeace's systems of government are equally flawed and unworkable. At least Chazumi has the sense to recognise that there will be greedy SOBs out for personal power, he just seems to think he can somehow stop it in his system, which is of course bull.

Optimisation would provoke an armed resistance immediately. If that fails, there will be eventually be mass, organised resistance. If you are successful in creating a new race that simply does as it's told, the only way such a system will work, it's not optimisation, it's technocracy, and that's just as flawed.

I'm sorry Chazumi, I sympathise with such a system, but it simply will not work. For a start, there's no room for growth and mutation, which are necessities if the human race is to avoid stagnation and eventual extinction, as such growth and mutation would not be 'optimal.'

 

[Chazumi]

Chazumi and greenpeace's systems of government are equally flawed and unworkable. At least Chazumi has the sense to recognise that there will be greedy SOBs out for personal power, he just seems to think he can somehow stop it in his system, which is of course bull.

Optimisation would provoke an armed resistance immediately. If that fails, there will be eventually be mass, organised resistance. If you are successful in creating a new race that simply does as it's told, the only way such a system will work, it's not optimisation, it's technocracy, and that's just as flawed.

I'm sorry Chazumi, I sympathise with such a system, but it simply will not work. For a start, there's no room for growth and mutation, which are necessities if the human race is to avoid stagnation and eventual extinction, as such growth and mutation would not be 'optimal.'

Please explain in detail how termination will not work, if the person is a threat to the system and is eliminated, threat eliminated, there is no loss to the system since that person would not be providing for the system anyways.

Assimilation is the hardest part of developing this theory. My only course of action for the most Optimal course is a series of nuclear detonations in key locations, and a unification of the group under a certain ideology that is not Optimization, but is unorganized enough to be gathered up and thrust into Optimal Wave 1.

Optimization will be very slow from the get go, only because of the mass terminations required to start it. However if for whatever reason it is widely accepted, then it won't be an issue to start Optimal Wave 1 and continue forward. I am thinking that if some sort of narcotic can be created that is easily and cheaply produced to produce a common effect among all people this could be used to buy time until genetic waypoints can be installed.

 

[greenpeace]

Well then this doesn't differentiate itself from Optimization, except for the fact that there is no negative effect of refusal to adopt the system, whereas Optimization will terminate you.

Um, its vastly different because I'm not forced into any career, or forced to do anything (except live in the system and use incentives, cause physical, emotional, intellectual harm).

The theory that I posed was "If I woke up tomorrow in a place like this". I don't know too many people on the block with a moderate stockpile of weapons and ammunition, not to mention body armor capable of deflecting automatic kalishnikov rounds, along with tourniquets, israeli bandages, and enough hextend and saline solution to hydrate a small army. And as far as Random Neighbor Guy, he totally has the right in ANY society to say screw you when looking down the barrel of another mans gun, doesn't mean it will matter much when he's dead.

True. But firefights usually have a winner. Not always, but usually. Not to say I would win all of them.



I guess... I mean I'm only trained to kill right?



Ummm... I must have been playing hookey the day we had our permaculture class in high school, because I can barely get my cucumbers in the back yard to grow. Plus killing you, taking your food and resources, not to mention your wife just sounds so much cooler right? That is probably the viking in me talking though.

Let me answer you in this way, you don't do that in your society, so why would you suddenly be able to in mine?

 

[Perfection]

There is no point to this discussion. You believe morality is important. I don't. We're not going to change each other's minds, so move on.

I disagree, I think I can show morality is important!

You would agree that say not punching old ladies in the face is important?

I would say that your revulsion toward the idea of punching old ladies comes from your morality!

 

[greenpeace]

Wow, I just realized Chazumi's system is the same for the vast majority of people living in this society.
The average person is born and told to become something other than human (that is "I'm going to be a firefighter" or some such), slowly their life becomes more and more work until the average waking day is spent largely on work and the human becomes a worker. This continues until the person is so worn out that they cannot physically continue the job at which point they retire (Chazumi says that this is allowed as long as the person has made a net contribution, which is basically the same as Capitalism). People are terminated for disobeying in both systems, except in one its death and in the other its either a cement box with metal bars or a cement pavement. Seriously there is functional difference for the vast majority of people).