Optimum expansion rate

[RJM]

I have seen it said that the optimum strategy is to expand until your science rate drops to 40% and then concentrate on building economic infrastructure. Is this an old wives' tale or is there some justification for it? Does the optimum expansion rate depend on the level you are playing? What factors in your starting position would make you want to expand faster or slower - food, key resources, neighbours?

RJM

 

[Kaost]

it aint an old wives tale. Though, I would say more 60 % if ur not sure about what ur doing. The idea is quite simple, u dont want to drop very low on ur technologies research on early game. Also, the more u loose money (and research) , the longuer it is to put ur economie back.

For the expansion, it depends. Having alot of food and production will help u pop settlers faster. But yeah, u want to beat the AI on the key ressources and u dont want to have 3 cities between two 10-cities civs, hehe. So u try to build foward to the AI. And of course u send warrior/explorer to see whats around and u research technologies that shows key ressources.

U have to build the maximum cities u can without crashing ur economy too much and without slowing to much ur research I would say...

 

[madscientist]

I read on one of these forums to start building a settler if your running a profit at 70% science. It was one of the best pieces of advice.

 

[Ruler]

My new rule of a thumb is that if I make about 25 beakers per turn I take every happiness resource I can find or if there's enough food to run 2 scientist nicely so I can whip grannies and libs without problems I take it. It's been working for me of course if I'm not tied to an early war it's a different story.

 

[nullspace]

40% is a decent rule of thumb for a newbie, it will keep you from accidentally ruining your own economy. But there is no optimal strategy here, fast expansion and staying small each have benefits.

Fast expansion will increase your civ's overall production of hammers, and allow you to control more resources. It can lead to a higher tech rate in the long run once your cities are developed and their income surpasses their maintenance. The problem is that you need to research some vital techs like currency and code of laws to be able to develop your cities, and the researching will be slow if you expand too fast too early.

Staying small will keep your tech rate high in the short run, and it will allow you to spend hammers on things other than settlers. This is useful for teching fast to a religion or a military tech, and building wonders or an army. But you can't stay small forever if you want to win. You'll need to capitalize on your short-term advantage by going to war at some point to expand your territory.

 

[futurehermit]

You need to consistently expand. Each city you build should have workers to develop it quickly. Most cities should be commerce cities. You need to ensure you don't delay currency and col. Don't stop expanding until the land is gone. Or if you have a close neighbour finish wiping him/her out, recover your econ, and then follow the same procedure of consistent expansion. Once the land runs out, gear up for war with your closest neighbour. Only stop expanding once you have 15-20 cities (enough for space). Or, if you are going dom, never stop expanding.

If you are going cultural things are different of course.

 

[MrCynical]

The importance of code of laws and currency cannot be overstated. If your science rate is at 60% and still falling and you haven't got these, you need to stop expanding, or you'll stagnate early in the tech tree just paying your own maintenance. Courthouses are invaluable for keeping costs down (and now help with espionage as icing on the cake). Currency not only gives you extra trade routes, but allows to to get gold of the AI to run deficit research - also vital if your maintenance costs are getting high.

40%/60%, as people have said, it's just a rule of thumb. You might find it beneficial to drop almost to 0% if it helps you win a land grab, but that requires care to ensure you can revive your economy afterwards.

 

[xanadux]

Well one thing to keep in mind is that any city that will quickly pay it's own maintenance is a city you should settle. I recently played an Emperor game with a financial leader. I quickly realized I had an isolated start with a closeby moderately sized island. I had room for 15-16 cities, most of which would be coastal. My second city was coastal with copper, so I beelined to metal casting and built the colossus. Every coastal city I founded needed only pop 2 to produce 8 commerce. Although my science rate kept dropping, my beakers kept increasing. I didn't care if my science rate dropped to 30% ... I knew each extra city would quickly be contributing more than it consumed in maintenance.

 

[Percy]

Well one thing to keep in mind is that any city that will quickly pay it's own maintenance is a city you should settle.

True, but one must also remember that settling a city not only means paying the maintenance for that city, but also paying an increased maintenant on every single other city.

 

[RJM]

Well one thing to keep in mind is that any city that will quickly pay it's own maintenance is a city you should settle. I recently played an Emperor game with a financial leader. I quickly realized I had an isolated start with a closeby moderately sized island. I had room for 15-16 cities, most of which would be coastal. My second city was coastal with copper, so I beelined to metal casting and built the colossus. Every coastal city I founded needed only pop 2 to produce 8 commerce. Although my science rate kept dropping, my beakers kept increasing. I didn't care if my science rate dropped to 30% ... I knew each extra city would quickly be contributing more than it consumed in maintenance.

True, but one must also remember that settling a city not only means paying the maintenance for that city, but also paying an increased maintenant on every single other city.

Lots of good advice guys - thanks.

As far as covering the maintenance costs are concered, how do I work out the costs of the next city? Has someone published a chart showing costs, sizes, levels, etc?

RJM

 

[LedHead]

Minor point to make about the "rule of thumb %"

That "%" is the % of total generated by each city to be turned into . If your running 80% with poor commerce your doing worse then 40% with great commerce. Don't just base your science performance on that % alone...

Techs are bought with # of not your % value or . In truth a /turn value would be much more helpful for "are you doing enough research".
Which is why stacking + or +% buildings/wonders/specialists in a (couple) high cities is better then spreading it out to many low cities.

 

[LedHead]

@RJM http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/city_upkeep.php

 

[futurehermit]

Minor point to make about the "rule of thumb %"

That "%" is the % of total generated by each city to be turned into . If your running 80% with poor commerce your doing worse then 40% with great commerce. Don't just base your science performance on that % alone...

Techs are bought with # of not your % value or . In truth a /turn value would be much more helpful for "are you doing enough research".
Which is why stacking + or +% buildings/wonders/specialists in a (couple) high cities is better then spreading it out to many low cities.

This is very good advice. In one game I rexed hard with the Dutch. I had hereditary rule and was growing my cities vertically as well. I had only 40% tech slider, but was working a pile of cottages and my tech was really humming along at an alarmingly quick pace for that early in the game.

Bottom line: Cottages, Currency, CoL ftw

 

[RJM]

Minor point to make about the "rule of thumb %"

That "%" is the % of total generated by each city to be turned into . If your running 80% with poor commerce your doing worse then 40% with great commerce. Don't just base your science performance on that % alone...

Techs are bought with # of not your % value or . In truth a /turn value would be much more helpful for "are you doing enough research".
Which is why stacking + or +% buildings/wonders/specialists in a (couple) high cities is better then spreading it out to many low cities.

Thanks for the link to the article on city costs.

Let me re-phrase what you said above to make sure I understand it. The total research science generated by your empire is more important than the % research rate for judging the benefit of expansion. A new city should not lower your total . If total is the yardstick for judging whether to expand, an extra city has to do a lot of work to justify expansion. I get the impression that an extra city usually means 10% lower research to produce the same net income. So the new city has to produce quite a few . (Clearly trade deals for techs or resources can help keep the science rate up.) After currency, a new city generates at least 3 - even better than that if there are enough foreign cities for trade routes, but that is usually only after astronomy. So, it looks like a new city needs some form of trade special - an ocean food square, gems, etc to justify expansion. (Or more likely if the potential city site doesn't have a trade special, it needs to have something else important going for it to justify founding it.)

As far as the total is concerned, I have various research targets that I aim for - but don't always achieve. For example 100 per turn in AD 1 and 1400 per turn after building research labs. Do other people have targets of this sort?

RJM

 

[OKScientist]

As far as the total is concerned, I have various research targets that I aim for - but don't always achieve. For example 100 per turn in AD 1 and 1400 per turn after building research labs. Do other people have targets of this sort?

I run a SE, which makes the 40-60% rules somewhat irrelevant (because I get beakers from the specialists).

So, yes, I usually keep notes of the beakers I make/era, so that I can compare what/how I am doing with my previous games.
The thing is, sometimes I am slow, but so is every other civ (may depend on map and political situation). So it's hard to compare different games.

 

[JimT]

I read on one of these forums to start building a settler if your running a profit at 70% science. It was one of the best pieces of advice.

You have my builder mentality.
Surely you build an army instead!

 

[Brutus2]

I have a question about where to produce settlers. In the early game when you are trying to grab land and resources, do you have one city that is basically your settler factory or do you have each new city produce the next settler at some point. For example, when a new city hits pop 3, they make the next settler.

 

[Snaaty]

There may be various strategies for doing this, but I usually use this one:

rex capital to happy cap, impove everything capital can work (best to have 2 workers before first settler to do so), then start settler spamming in capital. Grow your second city ASAP (send the two workers with the settler, settle where food is, imporve and work only food rich tiles) and have it worker spamming once it reaches happy cap until you feel you have grabbed enough land (ALL other cities should produce defenders & a little infra...)

 

[slobberinbear]

Expansion is limited by money, plain and simple. If you don't have a way to make money and you expand, you will lose the ability to research and will eventually lose the game.

The best ways to make money in the early game:

* found a religion, build the shrine, and spread the religion
* build cottages
* access high-commerce resource tiles (gold, silver, gems, the calendar resources)
* build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce and reduce maintenance, respectively.

Try to settle cities in good money-making locations with an adequate food source. Then get your workers there to develop it quickly.

 

[DaveMcW]

The best ways to make money in the early game:

I agree, but not in that order.

1. access high-commerce resource tiles (gold, silver, gems, the calendar resources)
2. build cottages
3. research currency for the extra trade route
4. build marketplaces and courthouses in your cities to increase commerce and reduce maintenance, respectively.
5. found a religion, build the shrine, and spread the religion