Optimum mean research path?

[zan_laurin]

A question for more experienced players, what would be a optimum mean number of beakers per turn to approximatively reach the Future Tech era by the year 2000?
I always play on the Marathon, even that seems to short really.

Before the latest patch I occasionally brokered tech and explored the Rationalism policies. Now they don't seem as powerful as before.

I consequently focus on culture & optimum resource hogging during the first 100 turns. Then shift focus to science and production obsessively. And end up 10-15 techs in advance of other civs.

Eventually I expand my borders, neighbors will always be jealous in Civ V it seems. And their offensive usually ends in them loosing at least half of the empire as I escalate production towards military.

 

[Rpger29]

Are you asking what the mean would be, as in the average calculated from dividing by 1500 turns?

I would guess you mean a good mid/late game figure. I personally have been shooting for 1k bpt by 1900. The year seems to be a decent benchmark that is mostly irrespective of pace.

My goal is always to be in the late modern era before anyone else finishes up the industrial era. MI just absolutely mop up industrial era units.

Keep in mind I play on no higher than King anymore. I'm sure it's much harder to be that far ahead at Immortal/Deity.

 

[Kbo]

Focus on winning the game long before 2000 AD, if you're getting to future tech that late you won't have a chance on higher levels.

 

[fmlizard2]

Future Tech between 1750-1820 (on standard speed) is very possible without spamming RAs. It is doable by the 1500-1600s with tons of them.

is a very cumulative thing. If you are waiting until turn 100 to start caring about it then you will be behind a while. A library (or Great Library) should be one of your first builds. You also ought to delay expansion and build the National College in your capital if you can. Education should also be researched as soon as reasonably possible, and you should at least build a University in the capital very soon thereafter.

Make sure you use your science specialist slots. That was a biggie for me in becoming better at

If you want to tech fast you pretty much need Rationalism. It is a good policy tree...certainly fill out at least the left side of it.

Porcelain Tower is a must build for the free GS and more importantly, +50% from RAs. With the Rationalism opener you are getting basically a free tech for each RA.

Finally, my favorite trick is to time everything I have put together (saved Great Scientists, Scientific Revolution policy) so I can move from Biology or Steam Power straight to Electronics for Mechanized Infantry. Done right, you should be taking about 5-7 techs at once on this turn. I've done it as early as 1200 AD with minimal RAs. If you have Mechs in 1200 AD you have created the separation you need to win pretty much any game, even on Deity. The slingshot here isn't pure optimal teching but it basically eliminates your military concerns for centuries and is right on the science win path.

 

[chazzycat]

The cost of tech increases dramatically in the late game, so there's not really one number to shoot for over the course of the game. Basically, by the time you get to the late industrial/early modern age, you want to satisfy one of 2 requirements:

1) have a huge empire with high population capable of generating insane amounts of science. Usually done via conquest, expansion, or both, focusing on happiness and growth.
2) have signed a bunch of RAs to clear the expensive techs, and hopefully have Great Scientists on hand to clear the last, highest-cost ones.

#2 generally seem more efficient, and easier. Especially if you have rationalism and/or the PT. Even with 1 of those 2, the payoff for RAs is well worth it. It seems that way to me at least. FMLizard is right that filling your scientist slots ASAP is one of the single most important things to do. In most games you should have at least 4-5 scientists saved by the end game, use these for that final push in tandem with scientific revolution and Oxford university.

Not sure how it works on Marathon, but on standard this strategy usually ends up reaching the future era around the 1600-1700s.

 

[Crossed_Sabers]

Future Tech between 1750-1820 (on standard speed) is very possible without spamming RAs. It is doable by the 1500-1600s with tons of them.

is a very cumulative thing. If you are waiting until turn 100 to start caring about it then you will be behind a while. A library (or Great Library) should be one of your first builds. You also ought to delay expansion and build the National College in your capital if you can. Education should also be researched as soon as reasonably possible, and you should at least build a University in the capital very soon thereafter.

Make sure you use your science specialist slots. That was a biggie for me in becoming better at

If you want to tech fast you pretty much need Rationalism. It is a good policy tree...certainly fill out at least the left side of it.

Porcelain Tower is a must build for the free GS and more importantly, +50% from RAs. With the Rationalism opener you are getting basically a free tech for each RA.

Finally, my favorite trick is to time everything I have put together (saved Great Scientists, Scientific Revolution policy) so I can move from Biology or Steam Power straight to Electronics for Mechanized Infantry. Done right, you should be taking about 5-7 techs at once on this turn. I've done it as early as 1200 AD with minimal RAs. If you have Mechs in 1200 AD you have created the separation you need to win pretty much any game, even on Deity. The slingshot here isn't pure optimal teching but it basically eliminates your military concerns for centuries and is right on the science win path.

This mech infantry rush sounds like a great idea, I need to try that. I've always just used up my Great Scientists as soon as I get them to get whatever the most expensive tech available is at that time, which is probably why I've been struggling to win games even on King difficulty. So how many GSes does this strategy require you have saved, and do you use them all as soon as you have researched Biology or Steam Power?

 

[Rpger29]

GS's cost maintenance just like other units right?

I save mine for a few turns until I get to a crucial tech, but I don't stack 6-8 at once until industrial era.

 

[The Pilgrim]

GS's cost maintenance just like other units right?

I save mine for a few turns until I get to a crucial tech, but I don't stack 6-8 at once until industrial era.

Which is fine if you play for domination or pursue some crucial short term goal like entering Renaissance. But if you play for science/diplo victory by saving them till the end you'll gain more than from using immediately. You start stacking GS's in the mid game, so money shouldn't be such an issue. Basically with 6-8 GS's + Oxford + Scientific Revolution you can jump from Industrial Era to Future in single turn.

 

[Silverfuturist]

Future Tech between 1750-1820 (on standard speed) is very possible without spamming RAs. It is doable by the 1500-1600s with tons of them.

is a very cumulative thing. If you are waiting until turn 100 to start caring about it then you will be behind a while. A library (or Great Library) should be one of your first builds. You also ought to delay expansion and build the National College in your capital if you can. Education should also be researched as soon as reasonably possible, and you should at least build a University in the capital very soon thereafter.

Make sure you use your science specialist slots. That was a biggie for me in becoming better at

If you want to tech fast you pretty much need Rationalism. It is a good policy tree...certainly fill out at least the left side of it.

Porcelain Tower is a must build for the free GS and more importantly, +50% from RAs. With the Rationalism opener you are getting basically a free tech for each RA.

Finally, my favorite trick is to time everything I have put together (saved Great Scientists, Scientific Revolution policy) so I can move from Biology or Steam Power straight to Electronics for Mechanized Infantry. Done right, you should be taking about 5-7 techs at once on this turn. I've done it as early as 1200 AD with minimal RAs. If you have Mechs in 1200 AD you have created the separation you need to win pretty much any game, even on Deity. The slingshot here isn't pure optimal teching but it basically eliminates your military concerns for centuries and is right on the science win path.

I have used this trick to jump to plastics instead of mech infantry, so I can get research labs.

 

[Dactyl]

fmlizard2, can you point me to a video or a detailed description of this strategy in action?

 

[qemist]

Future Tech between 1750-1820 (on standard speed) is very possible without spamming RAs. It is doable by the 1500-1600s with tons of them.

is a very cumulative thing. If you are waiting until turn 100 to start caring about it then you will be behind a while. A library (or Great Library) should be one of your first builds. You also ought to delay expansion and build the National College in your capital if you can. Education should also be researched as soon as reasonably possible, and you should at least build a University in the capital very soon thereafter.

...
GS and more importantly, +50% from RAs. With the Rationalism opener you are getting basically a free tech for each RA.

I see advice like this a lot. What I never see is what to do when an AI builds the GL first, or the PT first, or you get multiple DoWs while building the NC. I suspect the answer is "reroll".

 

[Dactyl]

That's the problem I have with a lot of the strategies suggested in this forum. They don't tell you how to adapt the strategy when conditions aren't ideal, the unspoken assumption being that you reroll. What I would like to see is a good, all-purpose strategy for even one civ, a strategy that stands a good chance of being successful no matter what the start, or what the AI manages to do.

 

[CornPlanter]

That's the problem I have with a lot of the strategies suggested in this forum. They don't tell you how to adapt the strategy when conditions aren't ideal, the unspoken assumption being that you reroll. What I would like to see is a good, all-purpose strategy for even one civ, a strategy that stands a good chance of being successful no matter what the start, or what the AI manages to do.

That would mean broken game. Seriously, if you have an algorithm for victory which works under any conditions, where's the fun?

 

[Dactyl]

I was referring to something along the lines of what Olleus is saying. However, for practical purposes an effective all-around strategy would have a handful of goals that were to be accomplished. If one fails to meet a goal there should be an alternative suggested that's reasonably effective. I personally feel like it's cheating to reroll a game because it's not what you want. (Perhaps "cheating" isn't the best term since you're playing for you own entertainment against an AI, not another person, but you get my point.)

 

[fmlizard2]

I see advice like this a lot. What I never see is what to do when an AI builds the GL first, or the PT first, or you get multiple DoWs while building the NC. I suspect the answer is "reroll".

Well, yeah. Sometimes, anyway. If you are playing Deity and you get beat to the GL by one turn or something, there is very little you can do to recover from that. Not that you can't win without GL, per se (you can) but the loss of that many early turns is nigh impossible to overcome. Some will make even Deity sound very A - B - C but you do lose on it. Often it is because of just bad luck.

But, you can also adapt to bad breaks. I won my first ever Deity win (as Egypt) last night without any strategic resources whatsoever (no horse, iron, coal, or oil), a tundra/massive forests start, and hemmed into only making 3 cities. On a pangaea. Any sort of passable military defense was completely out of the question. When I got Mech Infantry around 1100 AD, I had to upgrade my pikemen and warriors to them...seriously. I had to sneak across the line through buying tons of wars and staying quiet until I had enough RAs and GSes to win.

In most cases there is an answer, particularly after the first 50 turns. Even then, I got a little lucky

 

[The Pilgrim]

I see advice like this a lot. What I never see is what to do when an AI builds the GL first, or the PT first, or you get multiple DoWs while building the NC. I suspect the answer is "reroll".

Not really. It will slow you down but this does not nearly mean the game is lost. Maybe you'll end up finishing in 1800's not in 1700's. GL isn't a must have. It's a nice bonus. You can easily hard tech Philosophy. If you're late to HS you can take Liberty finisher GE for PT. If your science is not sufficient to tech all the way up to Compass + Education as alternative you can sign RA or two to compensate that. In the worst case scenario - you missed PT - capturing it is a viable option unless it's too far away/on other continent. PT basically is the only breaker in whole strategy. And there is no reasons for you to miss it if you go hard after it. Of course this strategy isn't multiple_DoW's-proof, neither horrible_no_production_no_food_start-proof. None of them is. You cannot do much against 20 warriors on turn 35 no matter what strategy you choose.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Well, yeah. Sometimes, anyway. If you are playing Deity and you get beat to the GL by one turn or something, there is very little you can do to recover from that.

That's why I wouldn't dare to build it on Deity.
What was the formula? 6 forests in the capital, 3 workers, marble tiles + popping needed techs from huts. It can be done with big amount of luck. Doesn't worth the risk, IMO. On immortal I've been able to recover reasonably well.

 

[MadDjinn]

Not really. It will slow you down but this does not nearly mean the game is lost. Maybe you'll end up finishing in 1800's not in 1700's. GL isn't a must have. It's a nice bonus. You can easily hard tech Philosophy. If you're late to HS you can take Liberty finisher GE for PT. If your science is not sufficient to tech all the way up to Compass + Education as alternative you can sign RA or two to compensate that. In the worst case scenario - you missed PT - capturing it is a viable option unless it's too far away/on other continent. PT basically is the only breaker in whole strategy. And there is no reasons for you to miss it if you go hard after it. Of course this strategy isn't multiple_DoW's-proof, neither horrible_no_production_no_food_start-proof. None of them is. You cannot do much against 20 warriors on turn 35 no matter what strategy you choose.

the PT isn't that important. (for winning) It's helpful to have, mainly to prevent an AI from getting +100% beakers on RAs.

the GL and PT, and frankly every wonder, just makes you win faster.

I missed the PT on my Roman game, but just expanded and kept up on techs. (except for the Egyptians who sped through the tech tree)

 

[fmlizard2]

That's why I wouldn't dare to build it on Deity.
What was the formula? 6 forests in the capital, 3 workers, marble tiles + popping needed techs from huts. It can be done with big amount of luck. Doesn't worth the risk, IMO. On immortal I've been able to recover reasonably well.

In this referenced game, I got GL on turn 39. I didn't chop a forest (tree hugger), had no marble, and didn't even have a worker until turn 60. I got nothing meaningful from huts. I spent all my getting Siam into early war. I did have Egypt and Aristocracy though.

I used a Granary (w/3 deer, 1 wheat) to get a big early population and then went focus on my undeveloped silver mines to make it happen.

 

[MadDjinn]

In this referenced game, I got GL on turn 39. I didn't chop a forest (tree hugger), had no marble, and didn't even have a worker until turn 60. I did have Egypt and Aristocracy though.

I used a Granary (w/3 deer, 1 wheat) to get a big early population and then went focus to make it happen.

sure, the GL can finish late, depending on the settings and the AI in the game. but turn 39 is well beyond the 'average' finish time.