Orcs, Orcs, Orcs

[MaxAstro]

So, I've been looking at the different racial promotions, not to mention the "feel" of the civs of different races, and I can't help but feel the Orcs are a bit... underwhelming, especially compared to the Elves (I think the Dwarves could be a bit stronger, too, but that's a subject for another topic).

Now, obviously, you can't make the Orc racial promotion too strong, because it's what the Barbarians use. That's perfectly understandable. However, in my case, I love making the Barbarians as deadly as humanly reasonable, so I am going at this with a kind of "bring it on" attitude.

So, the first obvious step I am considering is giving Orcs double movement in Jungles, which seems to be their official "native terrain". My questions are: How powerful of a change do you guys think this would be, and how hard would it be to code? (I haven't looked very hard at the XML for promotions yet, I don't know if it's just a matter of coppying a few lines from the Elven promotion and changing a TERRAIN_FOREST to a TERRAIN_JUNGLE or if it's more complicated then that...)

Also, if anyone has any other suggestions for making the Orc race more "on-par" with the Elves and Dwarves, I'd love to hear them.

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

Well, orcs can travel in fire, which on Arboria maps (Acheron is hell) is a lifesaver (unless they're attacking you). I think orcs are ok, considering elves are simply better, and dwarves are sturdy. Orcs are, after all, by products of a demonic fall. Thus they should be weaker.

 

[Sisonpyh]

So, I can't help but feel the Orcs are a bit... underwhelming, especially compared to the Elves

I agree and I use to bug Kael about that all the time.

Inherently, I think we just want FFH Orcs to be more Warhammer 40k-esque. Though, I think Kael just has a different vision.

 

[Squirm]

Give 'em the ability to take the Dwarf and Elf slaying promotions. Now you've a race tooled up for fightin' and conquerin'.

 

[MaxAstro]

...Or I could try and create a "human slaying" promotion... ^_^

Something else I wanted to do to add to the Jungle synergy, which is really what I want to give the Orcs. Is there a way to make it so the Clan of Embers leaders get +1 food from Jungles?

 

[Humakty]

I do agree orc promotion is not good enougth . The amber clan is really one step behind militarily, till late game(very late for them ! ) when it gets it's cool ogre units. It's the only racial promotion which doesn't give movement bonuses.(fire resistance could be higher, thus avoiding redundancy with elven promotion)

 

[Corm]

So, I've been looking at the different racial promotions, not to mention the "feel" of the civs of different races, and I can't help but feel the Orcs are a bit... underwhelming, especially compared to the Elves (I think the Dwarves could be a bit stronger, too, but that's a subject for another topic).

Now, obviously, you can't make the Orc racial promotion too strong, because it's what the Barbarians use. That's perfectly understandable. However, in my case, I love making the Barbarians as deadly as humanly reasonable, so I am going at this with a kind of "bring it on" attitude.

So, the first obvious step I am considering is giving Orcs double movement in Jungles, which seems to be their official "native terrain". My questions are: How powerful of a change do you guys think this would be, and how hard would it be to code? (I haven't looked very hard at the XML for promotions yet, I don't know if it's just a matter of coppying a few lines from the Elven promotion and changing a TERRAIN_FOREST to a TERRAIN_JUNGLE or if it's more complicated then that...)

Also, if anyone has any other suggestions for making the Orc race more "on-par" with the Elves and Dwarves, I'd love to hear them.

Its the bain of all fantasy realms that Elves always get the good stuff over the other races!

Maybe this is a perceived personal peeve (although its not!) but in my considerable experience with fantasy wargaming/rpging/video gaming Elves always attract the most ardent fan boys and getall the good weapons, promotions and abilities because of that reason! I use Warhammer, AD&D all editions of Forgotten Realms, AD&D 1st Greyhawk, Lord of the Rings rpgs, pc games, and even AD&D 2nd Spelljammer and that was set in sapce and had tons of cool races but oh no still the pansy pointed eared freakazoids get the*snip* Ranting curtailed to avoid heart attack.

Umm now that I have that off my chest I feel the same. The Orcs need more stuv! Its a little change but an additional movement point (which ties in with fast moving/forced march orcish backgrounds) for each unit or possibly the Blitz promotion (attack as many times as you have movement points) could be appropriate?

Anyway I blame the Elfs!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I really think that the anti-racial promotions should comw back, but they shouldn't be availible except though random events. I'm thinking a relatively common event that grant the anti-racial promotion to a unit that has already killed a unit with that promotion, and a much rarer random event requiring war against a civ of that race and/or at least one unit with said anti-racial promotion that allows you to give that promotion to all units of a certain unitclass, unitcombat, or even to all of your units (probably for a price). They could add Angel-, Demon-, and Golem-slaying promotions too, but the events would be quite rare.

 

[MaxAstro]

Actually, I kinda like the idea of units getting racial slaying promotions from killing units of certain races... that way, if you end up at war with the elves, you can get a little edge that way... And the whole point of anti-racial promotions is to balance out the nifty abilities races get.

I still think I'll play around with giving Orcs free Jungle move and see how that goes balance wise... probably also do something like give them more like 25% Jungle attack, but no special Jungle defense bonus, to keep their focus on offense. Or I might leave the +10% Jungle attack and defense, and then give them +15% global attack, but -10% global defense.

Also, can I restate my question about giving the Clan of Embers +1 food from Jungles? What would be the easiest way to code such a thing?

 

[it-ogo]

Jungle movement is good for lizardmen as their lairs are mainly in jungle.

Orcish IMO are nice to have +10%str in wilderness and -10%str inside any cultural borders. More problem for explorer and easier for AI to survive with raging barbs.

As for dwarves and elves the trivial suggestion is to make them exact symmetric: dwaren for hills is the same as elven for forests, maybe even add some negatives for elven in hills and dvarwen in forests for better balance with default human. BTW it is nice to have even human racial promo. Every unit needs a race.

Again pity of the lost dwarven mine. One can make dwarven mines buildable everywhere, not only on hills.

 

[Grey Fox]

BTW it is nice to have even human racial promo. Every unit needs a race.

IMHO, not really, since humans are what I would consider neutral in stats. They could have one if there was for example a spell or something that targeted humans specifically. But I don't see much reason for this in the main mod.

 

[Sarisin]

I think taking away the Orcish bonus you could get with Ancient Chants really benefited them, especially the barbarian units. That Orcish promotion helped a lot in the early game with the raging barb setting.

I'm only into my second game of .30 and I find the raging barb dynamic in .30 changed. In both games the barbs don't appear in force in Epic speed until around turn 200. It used to be around turn 72. This gives you a lot of time to build up your forces and prepare your defense. It is a shame the AI doesn't think this way, though, and still expands like crazy with only one or two Warrior defending.

However, in my two games, when the raging barbs came, they really came. Including in their onslaught was Lizardmen besides the customary goblins and warriors. AI civs went down quickly.

I don't think giving them the extra movement in jungles would be that bad, however, I don't think they should have increased strength in jungles. If you do that, then I think you need to counteract by decreasing their strength in other types of terrain.

 

[it-ogo]

IMHO, not really, since humans are what I would consider neutral in stats. They could have one if there was for example a spell or something that targeted humans specifically. But I don't see much reason for this in the main mod.

Unified system is easier to handle. That is a general principle of system engineering.

Now it is easy to make something that target specifically dwarves or elves if it is suddenly necessary for some reason. And hard to do it with human. That is a simpliest example. More complicated: now living unit (as I imagine, maybe I am wrong) is defined negatively: as non-undead, non-demonic etc. Positive definition is impossible. But it usually is better as for a new entity it allows to add few necessary features, not to remove all what have been done before. Let us make an equipment: Orthus Axe. Who is able to wear it? Non-spiders, non-catapults, non-ships, non-parrots, non-other-equipment, ...

 

[Grey Fox]

True, and that is also why I got human promotion in my FfH based mod. But my mod is RPG rather than strategy-builder-wargame.

 

[TravellingHat]

As already suggested, I'd be inclined to make orcish similar to elves, but for jungle.

If they got +1f/h for jungle, that would simply counter the jungle penalty, though I'd be inclined to leave the unhealthiness. If goblin workers could build improvements in jungle without chopping it, the orcs could have usable home terrain that would be difficult for invaders to traverse (movement penalties, unless woodsman II) and easier for the orcs to defend.

Having their home in festering, disease-rife jungle seems appropriate. The big problem for them would then be poor health, which again seems in keeping, and there are after all numerous buildings to combat this (granaries, smokehouses and herbalists are all pretty early).

 

[Calavente]

in ffh I am partial against 'symetrical' kael and co have put a lot of work into doing a game that is neither rock-paper-cisor nor symetrical but still balanced (almost )

I'd love more fun for the orcs.;. but symetry is a bit bland IMO and not really constructive

Cala
PS : maybe I will proposesomthing later.. but I'm ill today

 

[TravellingHat]

I agree total symmetry is bland, but I think if orcs are a jungle people, they need something so that they can viably live there. Otherwise in their natural environment they are stuffed for food and production, which is a pretty major handicap.

Anyway, here's an unrelated suggestion, also based on what's already been discussed above: the forced march. How about all orcish units have a "spell" of Forced March which allows +1 move but incurs the Exhausted (or is Fatigued) promotion?

 

[xienwolf]

I think it would be great to go another angle with the Orc Promotion. Make the racial ability be Blitz. Most of your orcs are fairly low level, so they will not be able to do much with the ability beyond capturing a worker that is close to your city, then still ransacking the city. And besides, it is VERY orc-ish to throw yourself at the enemy until you personally are reduced to nothing.

 

[EvilBob22]

I disagree with giving blitz. Yes, it does fit in as very orcish, but it is too strong. As Xienwolf said, most of the barbarian units wouldn't benefit, but Clan of Embers would become a monster mid to late game.

 

[MaxAstro]

Yeah, Blitz would be a bit much. What I am looking for is to have the Orc racial promotion A) Give them an advantage in their native terrain, and B) Encourage them to be aggressive.

Currently, what I've decided on is +15% Jungle attack and defense, double Jungle movement, +15% city attack, and -10% city defense. The city attack and defense fits into the theme of encouraging aggression: You want to make sure you are hitting them before they hit you. I'm also debating whether Orcs should keep the Fire damage resistance or have it be changed... not really sure how useful it is to them.

I think what I most want to do for them as a Civ is exactly what TravellingHat suggested: +1f in Jungle terrain and Goblin Workers able to build without chopping Jungle. If I could implement this, I would tone down the bonuses the racial promotion gave. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to code either of those, and I have the feeling making Goblins able to build improvements in jungles would be rather tricky to code.

Oh, also: I'm removing the Jungle synergy entirely from the Woodsman 2 promotion, because honestly it makes very little sense to me. I may add another promotion of some kind that is Jungle specific, or I may just leave the Jungles the domain of the Orcs, which is my inclination.

My plan is to make the Orcs very dangerous and very hard to compete with in their own terrain (as long as they can deal with the unhealthiness). Since Jungle is usually found on the "edges of civilization", since it's such negative terrain for everyone else, this seems to fit thematically with the barbaric Orcs.