Orcs, Orcs, Orcs
- Thread starter MaxAstro
- Start date
xienwolf
Deity
I'd like to see jungle movement as a promotion so that animals can also be given it. Or make animal be by promotion as well 
How about allow for more free units for the Orc Civ, but make it so that any more than 3 (or some other number) units in a city causes unhappy per unit. Possibly as part of the Barbarian Trait or some new trait just for the Clan?
How about allow for more free units for the Orc Civ, but make it so that any more than 3 (or some other number) units in a city causes unhappy per unit. Possibly as part of the Barbarian Trait or some new trait just for the Clan?
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I think it would be interesting if having the barbarian trait and having multiple units on the same tile would trigger a fairly common random event: "Brawl." This would simulate your units would fighting eachother, letting them gain xp from the fight but injuring or possibly killing one or both units. (I'm not sure having the actual pop-up would be needed, as it could really slow the game down. It could just be like a randomly auto-casting Arena battle.)
This would solve the problem of barbarian trait civs having less xp, and would fit very well thematically for both Clan and Doviello (although I'm not as sure if it fits the Infernal so well. Since it does seem like it would fit the barbarian state well, perhaps it could be a function of the oc promotion instead? Or the barbs could be given barbarian, so long as it doesn't make them declarre war on themselves). It might also be appropriate for their units to be made cheaper since they might kill eachother off, and one unit would last as long.
This would solve the problem of barbarian trait civs having less xp, and would fit very well thematically for both Clan and Doviello (although I'm not as sure if it fits the Infernal so well. Since it does seem like it would fit the barbarian state well, perhaps it could be a function of the oc promotion instead? Or the barbs could be given barbarian, so long as it doesn't make them declarre war on themselves). It might also be appropriate for their units to be made cheaper since they might kill eachother off, and one unit would last as long.
Or how about, like in CNC: Generals, where one of the Chinese Tanks came into a sort of "Horde"-mode where they were stronger if there were at least 5 tanks in a group. The orcs could get a horde promotion if they have at least X orcish units in a stack.
I think the warriors used to be cheaper when they were still called Spearman.
I think the warriors used to be cheaper when they were still called Spearman.
it-ogo
Hedgehog
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 589
That's nice! I do not even think new mechanisms are needed. Why in stack? Enough is to introduce the probability to attack neighbouring friendly unit, if both of them in full health, that is all. And this probability should rise up strongly instead of disbanding units for support by barb AI. Then increase spawning rate by barbs and we have a model of darvinistic mechanism.
As a result we have strongly promoted barbs.I think for early game jungle movement bonus similar to elves in forest would work well as, assuming a jungle start, the goblins would move 2 squares every turn... allowing more huts to be opened (V important to finding early techs and money for REX tactic), giving orcs the same capabilities (and fear factor) as lizardmen within jungle. I'd even go as far as to say their workers can build improvements on jungle without chopping... thus giving the ability to build some form of viable economy (and therefore civilisation) in what will be, virtually, an uncontested area for the first quarter of the game.
Though this one could be horribly abused.... For a later game horde effect reduce the support costs and remove the supply ones. Giving the player higher numbers and, more importantly, the ability to export those numbers outside his borders. As a moderator for this, make it so that this support bonus only occurs within say 5 squares of an orc hero.... kill the leader, the horde disbands. But that would involve a new game mechanic.
Also Rantine could convert barb units
Just some ideas....
Though this one could be horribly abused.... For a later game horde effect reduce the support costs and remove the supply ones. Giving the player higher numbers and, more importantly, the ability to export those numbers outside his borders. As a moderator for this, make it so that this support bonus only occurs within say 5 squares of an orc hero.... kill the leader, the horde disbands. But that would involve a new game mechanic.
Also Rantine could convert barb units
Just some ideas....
xienwolf
Deity
Remember while trying to give them synergy for building/settling in the jungle that there is a hefty health penalty for jungles as well.
TravellingHat
Warlord
Just catching up on some of the above:
Remember, jungle is also -1h, so if you're modding the orcs tile yields, bear that in mind.
Blitz: sounds nice, but I agree it'd be overpowered. How about (and this supercedes my earlier Forced March suggestion) the March promotion is changed to require either Combat III or Orcish + Combat I. This would also simulate forced march in its way, not from extra movement but from less need to stop and rest. Additionally, if barbarians could be "taught" the value of March, you'd find less crippled units easy for the taking (yes, I'm looking at you Orthus).
Brawl: Not sure how this would be implemented, and you'd be completely hacked off if you just killed your own prized unit (hero etc), but I like the idea. What may work better would be having different tribes, and there's a chance of attcking friendly units of a different tribe. The tribes could be represented as a promotion (e.g. new units randomly get a promotion from a list of half a dozen possible tribes). At least this way, the player could try to keep the tribes seperate and minimise trouble. Hmm, mind you, am I just introducing some needless micromanagement? Perhaps it would be easier and less intrusive to implement as events, such as:
EVENT: STREET FIGHTIN' ORC
A messenger from [Braduk the Burning] reports a dispute between rival tribes has turned from a drunken brawl into a city wide riot. How should these troublemakers be dealt with?
1. Orcs will be orcs (do nothing).
1 turn of unrest, all units suffer collateral damage
+1 unhappy for 10 turns (normal speed)
2. Pay the strongest of them to beat the weaklings into line (costs level of highest xp unit x 5 gold).
All units except highest xp unit suffer collateral damage. Highest xp unit has chance to gain 1xp per other unit.
3. We need something to keep them occupied. Organise a prize fight (costs sum of levels of units x 5 gold).
Not sure how to implement, but wouldn't want to kill any units, though could leave some on 1 hp. Winning unit gains xp, and maybe possibility to gain Hero promotion.
+1 happy for 10 turns (normal speed)
Remember, jungle is also -1h, so if you're modding the orcs tile yields, bear that in mind.
Blitz: sounds nice, but I agree it'd be overpowered. How about (and this supercedes my earlier Forced March suggestion) the March promotion is changed to require either Combat III or Orcish + Combat I. This would also simulate forced march in its way, not from extra movement but from less need to stop and rest. Additionally, if barbarians could be "taught" the value of March, you'd find less crippled units easy for the taking (yes, I'm looking at you Orthus).
Brawl: Not sure how this would be implemented, and you'd be completely hacked off if you just killed your own prized unit (hero etc), but I like the idea. What may work better would be having different tribes, and there's a chance of attcking friendly units of a different tribe. The tribes could be represented as a promotion (e.g. new units randomly get a promotion from a list of half a dozen possible tribes). At least this way, the player could try to keep the tribes seperate and minimise trouble. Hmm, mind you, am I just introducing some needless micromanagement? Perhaps it would be easier and less intrusive to implement as events, such as:
EVENT: STREET FIGHTIN' ORC
A messenger from [Braduk the Burning] reports a dispute between rival tribes has turned from a drunken brawl into a city wide riot. How should these troublemakers be dealt with?
1. Orcs will be orcs (do nothing).
1 turn of unrest, all units suffer collateral damage
+1 unhappy for 10 turns (normal speed)
2. Pay the strongest of them to beat the weaklings into line (costs level of highest xp unit x 5 gold).
All units except highest xp unit suffer collateral damage. Highest xp unit has chance to gain 1xp per other unit.
3. We need something to keep them occupied. Organise a prize fight (costs sum of levels of units x 5 gold).
Not sure how to implement, but wouldn't want to kill any units, though could leave some on 1 hp. Winning unit gains xp, and maybe possibility to gain Hero promotion.
+1 happy for 10 turns (normal speed)
Definitely like that idea!
MaxAstro
Spiral Knight
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2007
- Messages
- 645
I do like that idea, and it fits. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can easily set the prereqs like that... Oh wait (looking at the code now). So I guess I'd set the PreReq to Combat1, and then make Orc and Combat3 the PreReqOrs? Would that achieve what was being talked about?
xienwolf
Deity
Not quite sure, is there a promotion that already has an "Or" stipulation? I would have thought you would make it Combat 3 as prereq, but Orc and Combat 1 as the OR.
MaxAstro
Spiral Knight
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2007
- Messages
- 645
Hm, odd, there seem to be two seperate prereq definitions for each promotion... Not sure what the difference is, except that one of them includes a PreReqAnd... Heroic Strength and Defense make use of both sets of prereqs... Looking at how it seems to work, I think I know how to set up march to work like we want. I'll play around with it and let you know if I figure it out.
EDIT: I see, they are just listed in an odd order. Yeah, I'm almost 100% sure that Combat 1 should be the normal prereq, and then Combat 3 and Orc should be the OR prereqs.
My thinking is that to have access to a promotion, you must: Have the basic prereq, have the AND prereq, and have ~any one~ of the OR prereqs.
EDIT: I see, they are just listed in an odd order. Yeah, I'm almost 100% sure that Combat 1 should be the normal prereq, and then Combat 3 and Orc should be the OR prereqs.
My thinking is that to have access to a promotion, you must: Have the basic prereq, have the AND prereq, and have ~any one~ of the OR prereqs.
TravellingHat
Warlord
I don't know how this should be coded, but just to clarify the logic I'm suggesting is:
(Combat III) or (Combat I and Orcish)
(Combat III) or (Combat I and Orcish)
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
If "brawl" were added, heroes and national units might be immune from it. On the other hand, if the chances event can be tied to the units' strength, these units wouldn't have a very high chance to lose the brawl, so there really wouln't be much of a problem.
I also agree with a the recent proposal in the Hinterlands thread that you should be able to settle on certain terrains/features until you have the appropriate techs, unless you are a certain civ (who might just need a seafaring-like unresearchable tech to allow settling/make the terrain more profitable). The Orc civs (clan and barbs) would be the only one able to settle in the Jungle before sanitation (although others could still capture their cities in inositable terrain). Desert tiles without a source of fresh water could also be unsettleable to anyone but the malakim before the tech that allows aqueducts (also sanitation?), Ice and Tundras should be Illian/Doviello only at firsts (although I don't know what tech should change this), and perhaps only 2 Elven civs could settle in forests (until bronze working. Possibly the forests isn't removed in elven cities).
I also agree with a the recent proposal in the Hinterlands thread that you should be able to settle on certain terrains/features until you have the appropriate techs, unless you are a certain civ (who might just need a seafaring-like unresearchable tech to allow settling/make the terrain more profitable). The Orc civs (clan and barbs) would be the only one able to settle in the Jungle before sanitation (although others could still capture their cities in inositable terrain). Desert tiles without a source of fresh water could also be unsettleable to anyone but the malakim before the tech that allows aqueducts (also sanitation?), Ice and Tundras should be Illian/Doviello only at firsts (although I don't know what tech should change this), and perhaps only 2 Elven civs could settle in forests (until bronze working. Possibly the forests isn't removed in elven cities).
I like the idea of having inexpensive units for the orcs. decrease the hammer cost per military units by 1/3rd decrease the support cost per unit by 1/3rd as well.
But besides that I don't mind the fact that the orcs kinda suck. It seems fitting actually, stupid orcs going around poking each other with sharp sticks shouldn't end up as an ultra strong world crushing empire when there are the likes of vampires, planar beings, elves, and etc around. lol. (but this is just my one biased opinion agains orcs)
But besides that I don't mind the fact that the orcs kinda suck. It seems fitting actually, stupid orcs going around poking each other with sharp sticks shouldn't end up as an ultra strong world crushing empire when there are the likes of vampires, planar beings, elves, and etc around. lol. (but this is just my one biased opinion agains orcs)
Humakty
Happy Goblin
There are different orcs in different fantasy universe. Tolkien orcs are twisted descendants of tortured people (elves ? can't remember exactly)captured by Morgoth, whereas in warhammer,D&D, and most roleplaying universes they are a race of sturdy, strong and stupid people.
The background in FFH indicates they are ex-humans, twisted by the evil angel Bhall. So there are no need to make their hand-to-hand units more powerfull than standard human ones.(even if a little ten (twenty?) percents more in fire resistance wouldn't be overpowering.
By the way I find the modified ogre units to be usefull (3 moves now), even if the basic ogre is less efficient in combat.(lost the + 50% against cavalry).
Overall I find the orcs less efficient in the actual version of shadow, than they were in fire. Having no access to library/arquebusier/canon is a big disadvantage, I think the basic ogre could use a +25% against cavalry.
The background in FFH indicates they are ex-humans, twisted by the evil angel Bhall. So there are no need to make their hand-to-hand units more powerfull than standard human ones.(even if a little ten (twenty?) percents more in fire resistance wouldn't be overpowering.
By the way I find the modified ogre units to be usefull (3 moves now), even if the basic ogre is less efficient in combat.(lost the + 50% against cavalry).
Overall I find the orcs less efficient in the actual version of shadow, than they were in fire. Having no access to library/arquebusier/canon is a big disadvantage, I think the basic ogre could use a +25% against cavalry.
