Order vs Ashen Veil

[Luckmann]

That's because Vampire Phanuel is AWESOME.

Pft. Vampire Chalid is way more of a vampire Jesus.

Technically, the Pope is a world unit.

Unique religious world units available only to the one with the holy city would be awesome. I so want my Battle-Pope of the Order.

 

[psychoak]

Except the pope is replaced at death.

 

[EverNoob]

If we define "powerful" in terms of raw military strength, I'd say AV is clearly more powerful because of Ritualists, Beasts of Agares and Profanes.

However if we include economic factors as well, AV is only slightly more powerful.

 

[cIV_khanh93]

I like the Bannor, and like roleplaying. if you take into accoutn Basiliscs, courthouses, palace mana, and shrine mana, you already have -90% for city upkeep, and if you modded another 10% decrease for social order...

The main thing I dislike is their tire 3 priest's spell is worthless, since they already have a civic for increased happiness, and already have no worries about city upkeep. I wish their spell was more combat oriented to help them convert enemy units, and unyielding order became unyielding law for Law III.

I mean, why does the Empy have better combat priests then the order?

Mod in -10%, or... acquire two sources of law mana? Of course, city states+courthouses (even calabim) already does this, but social order is pwnage.

 

[mtagge]

A few items left out for the order:

1. Order has a synergy with the Kurios as well.
2. Basium will give you palace mana if you ask him for it (he is your actual ally, not a potential rival).
3. You can still win with an Altar victory with Order (the easiest victory).

Given all the above points and the massive empire management bonuses (basilicas, Sphener casting unyielding order in every city he conquers, automatic religion spread) I think that Order is better.

 

[Tasunke]

IMO ... AV/ demons are supposed to be strong against everyone Except For the angels/ good guys. This is why I have wanted to world build a powerful infernal empire and play a hard bannor/ angels game against them in a good v evil roleplay game. However, the closest I can get is rushing Hyborem and either crushing them as Hyborem or bein slimy and conning my way into a religious vic with parent civ while hopefully not dying from Armageddon.

I also agree that Eidolons from ritualists can def be strong ... and an interesting mid-game "rush" strategy. (namely used by Hannah Irin of Lanun on Archipelago, with cities of "basically" no hammers and all commerce)

As a note I would like to know how to add hyborem as an enemy in worldbuilder, without having to get someone to summon him. I've been known to grant AV holy city and corruption of spirit to world builder ... and when that doesnt work I giv one def evil civ city an extreme number of great sages and hope for the best. (of course, this is irrelevant when playing on a hard difficulty, but it doesn't change the fact that I would like to see a bad ass super Infernal empire like the kind I tend to build)

Ah, as a note, it can be usefull to keep building more cities as Hyborem UNTIL you get either scholarship or guilds

 

[Tasunke]

Ah, and to answer question I think that AI Order is better, and human AV is better. IMHO

 

[Tasunke]

withdrawal chances are per battle. A unit has a chance to withdraw as many times as it is attacked.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Voted for AV being slightly more powerful. Av priests are better for military purposes and sacrifice the week is better than social order (imo). Also, AV gives you control over AC. If you cause the apocalypse, but you are better prepared for it, then it will ravage your opponents far more than it ravages you leading to a much easier win. Also, I think the whole undead/demon slaying argument is a bit meh. Sure you'll do better against some of the AV civ's units, but the hordes of champion's that everyone will have will be unaffected by undead slaying meaning you wasted a promotion spot. So, if you have a significant portion of your army with demon/undead slaying, than a significant portion of your army is weaker relative to your enemies overall. If you only have a few demon/undead slaying units, the huge numbers involved in mid and late game warfare will render those few units meaningless.

 

[Tasunke]

Maybe we should also use this thread to compare Infernals to Mercurians. and @potato overdose ... when would a human player have time to create such a huge army unless he already won? The only times I used massive troops to kill my enemy was on simul turns agains Eco

 

[MagisterCultuum]

As a note I would like to know how to add hyborem as an enemy in worldbuilder, without having to get someone to summon him. I've been known to grant AV holy city and corruption of spirit to world builder ... and when that doesnt work I giv one def evil civ city an extreme number of great sages and hope for the best. (of course, this is irrelevant when playing on a hard difficulty, but it doesn't change the fact that I would like to see a bad ass super Infernal empire like the kind I tend to build)

All you have to do is give some other civ (one with whom you are at war, if you really want him to be an enemy) the Infernal Pact tech. AV doesn't even have to be founded yet. It used to be that summoning the Infernals before AV was founded would mean it could never get a holy city and that when someone tries to found the last religion the game would crash, but I believe that has ben fixed and now the first city the Infernals build or otherwise acquire wil become the AV holy city if there hasn't been one yet.

While giving out the Infernal Pact tech will trigger the arrival of Hyborem and friends, there is no way to bring the Mercurians into the game in worldbuilder. Adding the Mercurian Gate in WB does not trigger their arrival, it just makes you unable to build it and summon them the normal way as it makes you reach the wonder's world limit. A human can easily give himself the Fanaticism tech and a great engineer to finish the wonder, but there is no way to force the AI summon the Mercurians.


If I recall, the Infernal units are added while you are still in WB, but the player is not added to the list of civs you can give units, buildings, and techs until you leave worldbuilder. On the other hand, I vaugely remember them being added to the list when I switched ot the units promotions editing mode and them switched back. Anyway, they won't be added to the list as soon as they enter the game.

 

[Luckmann]

[...] sacrifice the week [...]

The favourite civic for all with a sizable expense account, a good gaming rig, or just lots of pot.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

The favourite civic for all with a sizable expense account, a good gaming rig, or just lots of pot.

I'm surprised my post came out as grammatically correct as it did considering the copious amount of whiskey I had in me at the time.

Maybe we should also use this thread to compare Infernals to Mercurians. and @potato overdose ... when would a human player have time to create such a huge army unless he already won? The only times I used massive troops to kill my enemy was on simul turns agains Eco

When playing on deity or in mp lans its fairly routine to have huge stacks after turn 200. Having a massive army doesnt imply victory because your opponent could have an even larger army. Also, I don't understand why there is an assumption that if you have AV as your religion, you must have the bulk of your army as undead. I go AV for the priests, civic, wonders, heroes, and control over AC. Not for the diseased corpses.

 

[megamanx06]

The research bonus that you get from AV is nice. It is one of the most unappreciated benefits to having AV IMHO.

BTW...I like pie.

I voted Order because except for the beasts of agres (sp?), Order's demon slaying units can destroy infernal armies with little to no losses. But if I picked a religion based on the in-city bonuses, I'd pick Veil because of the science boost.

 

[Iceciro]

If I wanted a science boost I'd go for the much better percentage you get off Empy temples than the second elder council of the Veil temples.