Organization Policy in Progress Tree feels awfully weak.

[SolutionIt]

Anyone else feel the same about this? I usually just buy my workers before I ever have a need to build them and the extra movement point to them feels pretty pointless. It definitely gets some use on settlers but this is also the only tree that clearly struggles to make cities quick in the early game, which seems contradictory considering the policy requires you to expand somewhat.

Also you can just buy your trade units once the appropriate building is built so the policy basically becomes meaningless by the time you hit harbors.

Anyone think it should do +2 production, 15% production bonus to Trade Units, Workers, and Settlers, and give +1 free trade route or a free early caravan while keeping the movement bonus? A free trade route early isn't the strongest thing but could help a civ adopting progress siphon off some culture or science from another civ or help a new city's infrastructure.

Moderator Action: Moved to General Balance. - Recursive

 

[Milae]

Free trade route would probably be a bit much but yes me and others before have also suggested production bonus could be applied to settlers/other civilian units also.

 

[Stalker0]

I use the policy all the time, there are a million things to build and buy in the early game, the free worker is incredibly valuable.

 

[XplosiveLun]

Weak? Not at all. The extra Movement point is good. The production bonus is handy. It is my usually my first choice, if I'm not taking the free worker policy. As for the production bonus, it makes worker a viable production for your newly built cities, it now cost (almost) as much time as tier-1 buildings (granary, monument, shrines), as comparing to no policy effect. If you have furs, or pantheon resources, or anything worth immediately improving, especially for your newly founded cities and you can't spare your workers, this policy can help you make more workers in short time. Not to mention that +2 production is a neat bonus in most situations.

As for the extra movement, it affects how much time your units are working instead of walking. Settling cities, building new tile improvements, sending workers to other cities, are all movement-intensive actions. The less time workers spent on walking, the faster it completes an improvement. The less time settler spent on walking, the faster a city can begin growing. Furthermore, proximity will not be much of a concern when you decide which city gets to build settler or worker, these units will get to the destination much faster and start working, thanks to the extra movement point. This means that you can build settlers from far away and smaller city, and send them from one edge of your empire to another. So that you can dedicate settler production to your smaller cities while the larger ones develop themselves even more. More advanced cities with nothing to build, can send workers to assist developing cities.

 

[Rean]

Yeah, policy is just fine as it is. Maybe applying the production to settlers would be okay but trade route or caravan would be way too much.

 

[SolutionIt]

I tend to find if I just wanted a universal 2 production I'd get it faster and with more perks by going either Tradition and getting the policy that gives the Royal Guardhouse. That gives 1 prod universally to all cities except the capital.

OR, Just go with Authority and effortlessly kill a few camps to pick up 2 policies and get my universal 2 production like that along with all the perks of picking up authority gives such as culture from kills, science from kills if you pick up dominance, or if go the imperium route free gold and production on border expansion.

I just don't think a universal 2 production is warranted when I can get something similar with more valuable benefits on top of it.

Of course my original criticism still stands where you can just buy these units later on or in the case of workers literally produce them in a turn so it just feels like it loses too much value.


Edit: I also want to make an addendum to this. I find that in many many games the AI avoids going progress and just picks up either Tradition or Authority. I don't know if this is an issue with flavors or just the progress tree as a whole. And these same civs tend to be a policy or two ahead pretty consistently. I know progress isn't really meant to rush culture but just a tidbit to think about.

 

[SolutionIt]

I use the policy all the time, there are a million things to build and buy in the early game, the free worker is incredibly valuable.

Wrong policy. The one that gives a free worker gives +3 gold per city and a work speed bonus. That one is actually good.

I meant the one that gives a +2 production bonus and 25% build bonus to trade units and workers. It also gives an extra movement point but again me personally I think it is only meagerly useful.

 

[InkAxis]

I don't think progress needs a buff. Also a flat boost to settlers seems expected and boring, I like the current slightly more subtle gameplay. Yes progress can be slower at initial settling but I remember tests were run and overall progress had better settling, tradition was hurt more by the settles.

 

[Stalker0]

Wrong policy. The one that gives a free worker gives +3 gold per city and a work speed bonus. That one is actually good.

I meant the one that gives a +2 production bonus and 25% build bonus to trade units and workers. It also gives an extra movement point but again me personally I think it is only meagerly useful.

ooooooh, whoops I mean +2 prod to all of your cities that early in the game is solid. The extra speed has use when your in rough terrain, it will save you a turn of improvement every time you cross rough terrain. Is it the best policy? No its not...but every tree has its "dud" that doesn't do all that much. I would argue that's a feature, as it gives more incentive for people to go down multiple trees instead of the same one all the way.

 

[youngsteve]

Must admit I usually go Progress as I think it is the most rounded tree initially. Tradition is the weak one. Never pick it.

 

[Recursive]

That extra movement point is extremely useful when improving every tile in your empire, you spend less time moving from place to place.

 

[Grassland Farm]

It's a very good point imo. The only problem is that it has the very awkward neighbour of free worker. By the time you unlock your first policy it's indeniably great to instantly pop a worker.

Then once you've taken the free worker you can be in a somewhat awkward spot depending on how fast you're expanding: You want the science from city connections and happiness because you've expanded a lot - but also kinda more workers...
And if you delay Organisation then you also delay the only policy in Progress that pumps your culture (upon building Buildings). Progress already struggles with Culture so you're delaying it... by a lot.

Idk I might kinda be rambling right now but I'd say Progress has so many choices to make (unlike something REALLY obvious like "grab the free settler in Authority ASAP") that it's a tough tree to run.

 

[SolutionIt]

Must admit I usually go Progress as I think it is the most rounded tree initially. Tradition is the weak one. Never pick it.

I can't agree with Tradition being the weakest. All policies in it increase food growth in your cities and it has a policy that just straight up gives early faith. That and science from herbalists and some other building can't recall which one is pretty solid despite the placement it has. The free 2 growth is also great for rushing the bare minimum settlers you need quicker than progress can imo as well.

Again I don't see how the 2 prod and extra movement to civilian units is that great of a buff when you get can get something similar to the 2 prod by adopting other policies instead. I could see how later on in the game a trade route would be strong, but I still get many good late game benefits from tradition and authority policies myself.

 

[SolutionIt]

ooooooh, whoops I mean +2 prod to all of your cities that early in the game is solid. The extra speed has use when your in rough terrain, it will save you a turn of improvement every time you cross rough terrain. Is it the best policy? No its not...but every tree has its "dud" that doesn't do all that much. I would argue that's a feature, as it gives more incentive for people to go down multiple trees instead of the same one all the way.

I actually never bother with progress unless a civ is specifically designed with it in mind most of the time. I think the imperium tradition combo is so strong for placing lots of cities, getting them to grow fast and build fast, and then choosing to either improve your capital more or go through the authority tree basically make sit so that the only policy maybe worth picking up in progress is the +3 gold per city.

 

[Vhozite]

This is the one that gives the free worker and extra movement to civilians right? I love this policy. Dramatically speeds up settler movement and improvement speed. Even if it isn’t the best policy I love it for the massive QoL improvement. I play on Epic and you definitely notice when you have this vs when you don’t.

 

[youngsteve]

I can't agree with Tradition being the weakest. All policies in it increase food growth in your cities and it has a policy that just straight up gives early faith. That and science from herbalists and some other building can't recall which one is pretty solid despite the placement it has. The free 2 growth is also great for rushing the bare minimum settlers you need quicker than progress can imo as well.

Again I don't see how the 2 prod and extra movement to civilian units is that great of a buff when you get can get something similar to the 2 prod by adopting other policies instead. I could see how later on in the game a trade route would be strong, but I still get many good late game benefits from tradition and authority policies myself.

The problem I have with Tradition is it is probably alright once everything is settled, but early on my concerns are barbs & hostile civs. I am not a warlike player, so find it dealing with them, without some sort of structure or military in place.

 

[stormfallen]

This is the one that gives the free worker and extra movement to civilians right? I love this policy. Dramatically speeds up settler movement and improvement speed. Even if it isn’t the best policy I love it for the massive QoL improvement. I play on Epic and you definitely notice when you have this vs when you don’t.

Not quite. Organization gives:

• +1 Movement for all Civilian Units.
• +25% construction speed for Workers and Trade Units.
• +2 Production in every City.

The free worker is from Liberty.

As someone who grew up with Civ 4, where worker turns was one of the most important resources, I love this policy. I think maybe the production could get a small scalar, like +1/10 pop in a city.

 

[Jorad]

I'm wondering if the people who discount the +1 Movement for all Civilian Units are playing on the slower speeds like Epic or Marathon.
On Standard speed this is quite powerful. On normal terrain you walk 50% faster and on rough terrain you even tend to go 100% faster (as you get to move two tiles instead of one.)
As others have said this is very powerful as you get to settle your cities often 2 or 3 turns earlier due to arriving at the desired spot quicker than otherwise. You also have your workers spend less time walking between improvements. Indirectly therefore this is similar to an additional 10-20% faster improvement construction.

 

[dailyminerals]

It's pretty underwhelming. The +1 to movement is nice but is virtually a nonexistent benefit on slower game speeds.

 

[Delvemor]

Anyone else feel the same about this? I usually just buy my workers before I ever have a need to build them and the extra movement point to them feels pretty pointless. It definitely gets some use on settlers but this is also the only tree that clearly struggles to make cities quick in the early game, which seems contradictory considering the policy requires you to expand somewhat.

Also you can just buy your trade units once the appropriate building is built so the policy basically becomes meaningless by the time you hit harbors.

Anyone think it should do +2 production, 15% production bonus to Trade Units, Workers, and Settlers, and give +1 free trade route or a free early caravan while keeping the movement bonus? A free trade route early isn't the strongest thing but could help a civ adopting progress siphon off some culture or science from another civ or help a new city's infrastructure.

I don't know why you would "use your gold to buy a worker before you need to build them". I use my gold on units and for rushing shrines for the religion. The free worker and the faster improvement rate gets the job done. Not only that, but before you get Expertise, you're better off delaying the non-essential buildings on the new cities and focusing on units and workers instead. Buying units early allows you to destroy all these barbarian camps for gold very soon. The extra movement point is one of the reasons I prefer Progress over the other trees for most civs, so I don't get how you see that part as pointless. On standard pace the difference is very noticeable.

I also don't get this idea that you will struggle with making cities quick as Progress, it has never been my experience. If anything, the +3 food from the Fraternity policy allows you to use your secondary cities instead of your capital so it's potentially even faster as Progress as long as you improve your luxuries fast enough, which is easier to do anyway.

As for buying trade units I will usually build them in only a few turns. Sometimes I will spend gold on a worker for an isolated new city, but never on a trade unit.

IMO, Organization policy as it is now is perfectly fine and I will pick it either 2nd or 3rd depending on what my cities need the most, production or food.