Original Thread Discussion (Continued)

I like many aspects of your mod and will need to tear yours apart (lol) to figure out how you have done some things. I don't mess around with python or DLLs, but do all of my magic from the XML. Too many people underestimate what you can do within those files.

I am glad you like my mod and so I mean no disrespect when I say this. However I consider myself an expert in all aspects of Civ4 (except 3D modelling for LHs and units and stuff) at this point, so I am going to say it anyway. Your position is one of ignorance.

If I had to rate the total value of each of those components to my mod as a whole, custom Python stuff would be worth 5%, things I've done with/in the XML 35%, and work I've done in the DLL would be worth 60%. At least. I know the XML very, VERY well at this point, and in the old days, which I was around during, it WAS the primary way mods were made. And it's great, and I'm all for getting the most out of it that you can. But it has severe limitations.

Also, I am pretty certain you will find that the vast majority of particularly neat functionalities in my mod - the ones you're interested in copying - were done in the DLL, and cannot be done any other way. (MongooseMod has one of the most advanced DLLs out there.) ADDITIONALLY, again with no disrespect meant, the sheer quantity of both bugfixes AND improvements to AI behavior, just for the vanilla game nevermind for mods, that you lose out on by not having BetterAI/UP/etc which are DLL mods, is overwhelming, and any mod that isn't based on those is not worth playing. Period.

Just trying to be helpful, which requires being brutally honest, heh.
 
Hey!

I said I like many aspects of your mod, but I didn't say I necessarily liked it. To be blunt, it is OK for a starting mod, but I get the idea you have been working on this for awhile? It may be time to shelve it and get some fresh perspectives. Overall it is just too busy -- you got clutter everywhere!!

For example, The tech tree seems truly broken and not too logical -- why would Exploring lead to Training of Dogs?

I would think calling yourself an Expert in Civilization IV would be a gross overstatement without the ability to model. You seem to be quite egotistical (from other posts I have read) but to call yourself an expert at modding Civ IV because you can hack some XML and borrow some code doesn't make you an expert but just a braggart. Many aspects of modding is simply cutting and pasting, which without sounding too critical appears to be what you have done. Even the python stuff is easily borrowed from other people's mods.

I didn't say that XML modification was the end all of modding, but I do firmly stand behind the pure fact that many aspects of the game can be accomplished through simple XML changes. Can it do everything, of course not. But to state that my stance on it is of extreme ignorance is both arrogant and blatantly without merit.

I came here hoping to make a good contact at Fanatics, someone I could share ideas with, but you seem too self-centered for my liking. I am sure you have your devout players and I would think you should keep designing for them, since others may not find your mod too special.

Troy
 
Wow. Oooookay... last time I try and help a fellow modder; back to just keeping my mouth shut lol. Where to start...

I said I like many aspects of your mod, but I didn't say I necessarily liked it.

These two things seem pretty equivalent to me, at least with the "many" in there.

It may be time to shelve it and get some fresh perspectives.

This is especially amusing coming from someone trying to accuse the other person of arrogance, btw. ;)

Overall it is just too busy -- you got clutter everywhere!!

First time I've ever heard "too cluttered" as a complaint (after ~1800 downloads)... Seems to me vanilla is too uncluttered. :p Seriously... have you actually looked at the other major mods? They are as "cluttered" or more "cluttered" than mine, but with the "clutter" significantly less well organized, imo. I'd also strongly recommend you try playing a game with my mod before criticizing the density of the tech tree... I suspect your opinion will change once you actually experience what everything in there does.

I would think calling yourself an Expert in Civilization IV would be a gross overstatement without the ability to model.

If you think modelling is more important than programming for Civ4 overall, well, see my previous statement you took such offense to. You can still have tons of custom content without any custom models; it just won't look very good. But you can't have greatly improved gameplay without custom programming.

Plus I have actually made several custom skins for units that people have liked (check my Downloads page), and I have some limited 3D experience which I've already used in a different game project. It's more a matter of not having the software I would need (3DSMax for Civ4 modelling), not having time (my mod takes all my time as it is), and not needing to (the artists on this site have done a terrific job making custom leaderhead and unit graphics).

You seem to be quite egotistical (from other posts I have read) but to call yourself an expert at modding Civ IV because you can hack some XML and borrow some code doesn't make you an expert but just a braggart.

If having nearly all XML files, and nearly all tags in those files, memorized, as well as being intimately familiar with most of the DLL code that implements and/or utilizes those tags, doesn't make me an XML expert, I dunno what does.

If rewriting one of the most popular and essential components for BTS, the Sevopedia, 3 years ago when no one else was willing to take it on, and now having it used in most major mods... As well as porting the latest version of the best and most popular map script ever made, PerfectWorld, back from Civ5 to Civ4 because the author didn't have time to, and then tweaking and improving it substantially (with map scripts being very complicated things)... doesn't make me a Python expert, I dunno what does.

If having one bugfix in an official Firaxis game patch 4 years ago, another half-dozen-plus bugfixes in the standard DLL mod, Better BTS AI, that everyone uses, and having ~50 custom DLL mod components that have attracted substantial interest and over 100 downloads just for the source code alone, doesn't make me an SDK/DLL expert, I dunno what does.

Of course I'm egotistical and arrogant. I freely admit that! The thing is: that's only a bad thing if it's not justified. Otherwise it's a very good thing, in all areas of life (helps break beaurocratic inertia and get things done right).

Many aspects of modding is simply cutting and pasting, which without sounding too critical appears to be what you have done.

If you think I copy/pasted most of my content, that's just silly. In addition to what I said above, I've had and used an absolutely staggering number of original XML ideas, along with a few original Python ideas. My credits section still needs some updating here and there, but it fully covers everything I've used that isn't original. You may also want to consider the possibility that other mods have copied me, and not the other way around (I am in Quot Capita's credits for this reason, to name one example).

Even the python stuff is easily borrowed from other people's mods.

That is true, and would be a relevant statement, if I had actually borrowed more than half of my Python from other mods, or if I hadn't customized or rewritten most of what I borrowed. Or if I had much Python in my mod at all.

I didn't say that XML modification was the end all of modding, but I do firmly stand behind the pure fact that many aspects of the game can be accomplished through simple XML changes. Can it do everything, of course not. But to state that my stance on it is of extreme ignorance is both arrogant and blatantly without merit.

I said XML could do a lot, and that I was all for getting the most out of it that you can. I also did NOT say that trying to mod XML was related to ignorance. What I DID say, was that the DLL was crucially important, and ignoring it, which you indicated you were doing (for no particular reason so I'm left to assume ignorance, stubborness and/or laziness), was a very, very bad idea.

I suggest you read the BetterAI and BetterBTSAI patch notes, in full, if you want to learn... The base, unmodded DLL is a functional starting point, but it is full of serious bugs and poorly-written, badly-performing functions that JDog and others have spent years improving. Yes, the Firaxis code really does suck in many places and no, they really aren't miles above certain forum contributors when it comes to programming skill just because they have jobs at a game company and we don't.

Unless you have a multiplayer game full of nothing but human players, I don't see how AI programming isn't THE most important thing... a game is only as fun and interesting as the skill of your opponent/s, just in general. BBAI also includes the Unofficial Patch code, in which you will find literally dozens of distinct bugfixes to problems that were all annoying, and some downright game-breaking.

Then there's the point I already made, that the dozen or so major custom functionalities in MongooseMod, plus another three dozen minor custom functionalities, are, I strongly suspect, a lot of what you were so interested in using yourself. Or maybe you just meant my civic list (at least half of which were my original ideas) and tech tree (Exploring leads to Dog Training because early humans have to get out and explore to encounter dogs, btw). In any case, when you try and duplicate a lot of my stuff just using the XML you may be very surprised when you find out you can't.

I also strongly suggest you read, if not my monolithic Change Log document, at least the Stuff to Know and Patch Notes documents or sticky threads. They will help you get an idea for the sheer magnitude of stuff that's been done in MongooseMod, and just how heavily tweaked and customized every last setting is compared to vanilla and other mods. Editing XML may be easy the same way typing English sentences is, but that doesn't mean everyone can write a best-selling book. I'm not implying anything there because I hate writing, but you get the idea. :)
 
Alright, I backed off on the "extreme" modifier in my original post since it was admittedly a bit much, and edited my post above to make a more comprehensive response.

I've been able to relax for the first time in 5 months since posting 3.6 a week ago, so I'm actually feeling much better now despite the recent exchange in this thread lol. Anyone have any comments on or questions about the new version yet? Just curious. :)
 
Buenos dias. He detectado algunos problemas en la version 3.6, cosas que antes no sucedian. He tomado algunas fotos para aclarar mejor las cosas pero en estos momentos estoy en el trabajo. En unas horas mas posteare en un topic nuevo. Ademas aviso con anticipacion que algo de lo que escribiré no te gustará, es una especie de crítica constructiva, aunque no totalmente constructiva xD

---------------------------------------------

Good morning. I encountered some problems in version 3.6, things did not happen before. I took some pictures to clarify things but now I'm at work. In a few more hours post them on a new topic. You notice in advance that some of what I write will not like, is a kind of constructive criticism, though not entirely constructive xD


Any error in English is not mine, is google ... :p
 
I'm someone for whom checking my email and putting BOLD PRINT on a title in my word document gives a sense of technological accomplishment. So MongooseMod is at a dizzying height that I'll never come close to. However, I can appreciate the amount of time and work that has gone into this - and I've been a fan since you started ages AGES back.

Mongoose and Fall From Heaven II are the two mods that have permanent place in my Civ4 folder. Just want to say thanks for your work and persistence.
 
Seems like I've only got about 20 active users at the moment, down from 500-ish last summer... darn Civ5 lol. Oh well, it's still enough to maintain public development for. :) As I've probably said before, I really appreciate your support Fallen_Addict... I just wish other people would post their thoughts too. Oh well.

Anyway, I'd already made a few emergency fixes on my end for the game I'm now playing, but 3.6.1 development has now officially started full-time. Because of the one serious bug that's in 3.6 I need to get this out soon, so I'm sticking to essential stuff and quick-and-easy stuff. There will not be any new balance changes; it will be almost entirely bugfixes, UI improvements, more updates to under-the-hood XML values, and the last of the missing text tags. I'm expecting to have it out in a week at most, and hopefully sooner. (Though by now you should know how I am with time estimates. :p)
 
Still around to, and enjoy the mod very much, hopefully there's been some movement on a job this week, it's just driving a forklift mostly, but none the less a job, so maybe, but left me less time to be on this week. As always, I am a fan of the mod, and appreciate the work you put into it. The only things I really noticed are the palisade thing and the Great Person screen, so I figured those were already covered. One thing I have been meaning to ask though, is there a file I can tone down the storms just a wee bit though, I tend to park warships over my fishing sites to protect them, and I end up playing wack-a-mole with healing them sometimes. If not it's cool, I'm fine with them, just thought there might be somewhere I can edit them at. Otherwise, smooth on my end, and again, thanks for the mod.
 
There is currently no way to adjust storm frequency and intensity, no. The storms are controlled by a combination of the XML feature spread and disappearance rate values for them, and my custom DLL code. (Which is from version 3.4, and I stopped posting it publically after 3.3, so the code for this particular feature is not publically available.)

It's not all THAT complicated, but it does lead to a situation where it's hard to predict what will happen b/c of how the code works, and you just have to test it and see. I got it to a point where I was fairly happy with it back in 3.4, and I haven't changed it since then. I would definitely like to try and increase storm clumpiness some more, so you get a bit fewer distinct storms worldwide and the ones you do get are larger contiguous blobs of black clouds, but that's hard and I haven't gotten around to it yet. I'll see if I can do anything with it now, but not gonna spend a lot of time on it. Overall I've been satisfied with the current storm level though.

Glad you like the new version though. Sorry about the bugs. :)
 
I might make submarines immune though, that's a good idea, except that they do sometimes spend time on the surface of the water too in real life.

U-boats in WWII spent the VAST majority of their time on the surface. A U-boat (1939-1943) could travel 17.7 knots on the surface and only 7.3 underwater!

I'm trying out the mod right now......wish me luck!
 
U-boats in WWII spent the VAST majority of their time on the surface. A U-boat (1939-1943) could travel 17.7 knots on the surface and only 7.3 underwater!

I actually wound up only adding Nuke Immunity to the modern submarines... for precisely that reason. :) Well, and the fact that, being diesel-powered, they couldn't STAY submerged for nearly as long either.

I'm trying out the mod right now......wish me luck!

Unfortunately, as has been discussed, there is one moderately-serious bug in 3.6 involving Palisades, plus a few other problems, so please don't judge it based on that. The bugfix update will be out fairly soon; thanks for trying it in the meantime! :)
 
SECOND BLIZZARD IN BOSTON!!! Omg I love it when it snows like this... *hugs the atmosphere*

*quietly gets back to work on the mod update*
 
SECOND BLIZZARD IN BOSTON!!! Omg I love it when it snows like this... *hugs the atmosphere*

*quietly gets back to work on the mod update*

I'm from Cambridge. I love snow days. I just downloaded your mod last night & i'm looking forward to a game today.
 
I'm from Santiago, Chile, and here is f***** hot, about 30 degrees celsius. And at work, a small office, I am sure at 35 degrees.
Snow? Hopefully here 1 time in 10 years ...
My only consolation is to get home and relax a long time playing this mod.
 
I'm from Cambridge. I love snow days. I just downloaded your mod last night & i'm looking forward to a game today.

Kewl! I'm in Medford now, but I lived in Cambridge for 4-and-a-half years for college back in Ancient Times (ie 12-17 years ago lol). As I told JJ, version 3.6 has some issues so please don't judge it til I get my next update out, which should only take a few more days hopefully.

I'm from Santiago, Chile, and here is f***** hot, about 30 degrees celsius. And at work, a small office, I am sure at 35 degrees.
Snow? Hopefully here 1 time in 10 years ...
My only consolation is to get home and relax a long time playing this mod.

Glad you like it so much. :) Sorry about the heat. I'm uncomfortable in anything over 75 degrees F which is... 24 C. I'm happy down to about freezing, but I still prefer any amount of cold over significant heat. I'm weird that way. (And lots of other ways too. ;))
 
I've gotten a lot done in the last few days, and version 3.6.1 is shaping up quite nicely. I'm currently expecting to be ready to post it Monday night, and if it does take longer it won't go more than a day or two beyond that. (And unlike most of my predictions this one should be fairly accurate; there's not too much left to do. :))
 
I've updated the Change Log sticky thread with my notes as they currently stand. I have 6 things left to do on my list, and am still expecting to have the 3.6.1 update posted possibly tomorrow night, but probably sometime Tuesday. Feel free to read over the changelog info while you wait. :)

Now then... I'm going to sleep. I don't think I'm old enough yet to have a heart attack while I'm sleeping, so odds are good I will wake up again, at which point I will resume working on this thing. I may also eat a small amount of food. ... That is all.
 
looking forward to the next update. Other than the Pallisade and Great Person bugs, everything else has been smooth and not on CTD.
 
looking forward to the next update. Other than the Pallisade and Great Person bugs, everything else has been smooth and not on CTD.

Well, once you have a completely stable base to work from, CTDs will generally only ever happen if you make a major mistake with something somewhere, so I'm not too surprised. ;) But yeah that's probably easier said than done for a complicated mod like this hehe, so I do appreciate the report. :)

As far as the update goes, I'm running a little behind schedule but not too much. I can definitely have it out tonight sometime if I work the whole time between now and then, but I may not feel like doing that, in which case it'll be out tomorrow, I swear. :p
 
Oh....

I have been having a 'bug' (or something) in which the autosave makes me accept the overwrite of my old autosaves EVERY turn....it's really obnoxious.
 
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