Orion's Home School 2: Nobles in Space

[Speedy36]

Quick questions:

Since you are going to war, are you going to focus on building cities that are high on production and hold off on science cities for a while?

My next question is that when you do build a science city is it optimal to build it in a location that produces a lot of wealth?

From my experience, I know that in order to out tech the AI you need to produce tech in less than 7 turns. However, my lead disappears after cavalry, rifleman, and grenadiers.

 

[Orion071]

ROUND 2 (2675 BC - 550 BC)

Well, I'm thinking that the attack on Gus can wait until I get Catapults to knock down the 60% culture that Rome will end up having. It's time for a little REXing to grab what territory I can.

Turn 55: A very nice event...



The +2 hammers turns that Mine into a 1 food, 5 hammer, 1 commerce plot, the same as if it had Copper or Iron in it. It also cuts 1 turn off of the Worker I'm building. My Worker is going to Farm one of the Floodplains for faster growth. The other 3 will get Cottages.

Turn 56: I found Gondar on Red dot:



I need to get those resources hooked up, so I start a 3rd Worker.

Turn 60: The Worker is done in Aksum. I need a few garrison troops, so I'll order up a couple of Warriors.

Turn 63: Pottery is in and Writing is next on the path to Construction.

Turn 68: The Warriors are done and Aksum builds a Granary. It will help the city recover from whipping better. My 2 Workers have moved on to Gondar to improve the resources there.

Turn 71: Gondar seems to have forced Gus to expand backwards on his west coast. I see a 2nd city close to Rome.

Turn 74: Writing is in and I go for Masony to improve the Marble. I Open Borders with Gus and Louis so I can scout them out.

Turn 76: My Scout enters Roman territory. Rome is guarded by 2 Warriors. It looks like an early Axe rush would have been wildly successful, even with 60% cultural borders. Again, I've vastly overestimated the Noble AI. Also, Rome has 2 Cows and Horses in its BFC, but one of the Cows has a Farm on it. I guess Gus doesn't even have Animal Husbandry. The Horses are troublesome because even if I get some Axes, Gus's Chariots would tear them up.

I guess I'll just continue my REXing.

Turn 78: Aksum finishes the Granary and starts on a Settler. Gondar starts a Granary.

Turn 82: Masonry is done. Barb Warriors are starting to appear. I will make a quick detour to Archery before starting Math.

I whip the Settler in Aksum. I'll settle the Copper city next to get Axes on-line. I'll regrow while building a Library.

Turn 85: I found Lalibela, the Copper city:



It will start on a Granary. My Workers are on the way to improve the Sheep and Copper.

Turn 88: Judaism is founded in a distant land.

Turn 94: The Library is done in Aksum. I'm going to start an Archer or 2 until I can get the Copper hooked up.

Turn 96: I whip another Worker in Gondar. It will continue (slowly) on its Granary while the Worker finally hooks up the Marble.

The Copper is finally Mined and Roaded.

Turn 99: Louis builds a city near his Copper to the south of Paris. Rome has Pastures on all of its animals, but I don't see any Copper, or Archers for that matter.

I still want to finish REXing before an attack.

Turn 101: Gus finishes Stonehenge in Rome. Bad news for the culture war near Gondar, but good news in getting a Shrine in Rome before I take it.

Turn 104: Aksum whips a Settler for White dot. I don't care. If Gus is only going to have a bunch of Warriors running around, then I'm going to build some Axes and come a-knockin'. Math is almost in and I've got a couple of chops coming to speed my army along.

Turn 106: Addis Ababa is founded on White dot:



It will start 1 more Worker.

Turn 116: Not much happening. Askum is building Axes (I have 4 right now helped on by 2 chops) and Lalibela is working on a Barracks so it can help with the army. Addis and Gondar are science cities for now. I've had to drop the science slider down to 80%, so Construction will be done in 10 turns. I may attack before that if I still don't see anything but Warriors in Gus's realm.

Gus asks me to stop trading with Louis. Um, no.

Turn 118: My 4 Axes reach the Roman border. Rome has 2 Warriors guarding it, with 1 more Warrior in the area. This is ridiculous:



If I can't take the city for some reason, then I'll pillage everything until Catapults arrive.

Turn 119: Rome finishes the Great Wall. Sorry, buddy, but I'm not a Barbarian.

Turn 120: My 4 Axes reach Rome. Still only 2 Warriors.

Turn 121: Gus whips a Chariot in Rome. Lol, n00b, Chariots only work on the attack:



Pretty good odds for sieging a capital. Of course, Chariots don't get defensive bonuses either. The Axe is badly wounded, but wins. The Warriors won't have as much luck:



My Axes win easily and Rome is mine:



Ha! With the Great Wall, a couple of pesky Barbarian Warriors in my territory are expelled. Stonehenge also gives all of my cities my UB, the Stele. I guess I'll feature it after all.

Turn 122: Hmmm, Antium, the Roman city to the SW of Rome, has Walls and a City Garrison Archer. If he gets another in there before I can get my Axes over, then I won't be able to take it out.

Turn 125: Awww, too bad. Still only 1 Archer in Antium:



I can't afford to keep it so it's razed. I have a Settler ready for Blue dot and then I'll stop expanding. It will be time for lots o' Cottages and researching.

Rome has a city in the southern Tundra and a city in the northern jungle. I don't want to wipe him out completely right now. If I do, I won't be able to get any techs out of him or Louis. I still might not get any out of Gus, but I plan on switching to Buddhism to help heal relations.

I need to get Alphabet so I can swing some tech trades. Construction is almost done.

Turn 127: Construction is done. I have some cash from taking out Gus's cities so the slider goes back up to 100%. Alphabet in 12, but I'll run out of money before then.

My last city for a while:



Hmmm, I don't even have Fishing yet, so no Workboat. I guess a Granary will do for now and I'll try to get some Cottages around.

Turn 128: Neapolis in the southern Tundra was built directly on some Copper, and it whips an Axeman. Unfortunately for him, my Axeman has CR II and wins easily. The city is auto-razed. Now Gus only has the 1 city left. I'll leave him alone until I get Alphabet and then see if I can get anything for peace.

Turn 131: I'm configuring my cities for max-science, Working Cottages and employing Scientist specialists.

Whoops:



Barbarians have taken out Gus's last city! A lesson for everyone, kids: Warriors just won't cut it against Barbs. You need Archery or some strategic resources.

Darn, no free techs for me. Now that I'm alone with Louis, he won't trade any techs with me. I'm going to have to do everything myself.

As some of you have noticed, I don't have any early happiness resources. A couple of my cities are Buddhist, but I can't spread it further until I get some of the religious techs. But because of my odd beeline, I'm able to build some Colosseums (at double speed, too!). Several cities order them up while I switch to Fishing. After Fishing, I'll finish Alphabet and then get Currency and Code of Laws for Courthouses.

Turn 134: Another odd occurrance of the Barbarians abandoning a city. Cumae is left empty and I go in and raze it.

Turn 138: Alphabet is done. Louis has Iron Working and Mysticism. I don't know how many other religious techs he has. I have a few options. I can try to steal the techs that Louis has. Once I get Courthouses, my espionage points will dwarf Louis. I can beeline Optics in an attempt to contact the other continent. I have no idea what I'll do next so it's a good time to stop.

Here's my realm:



As far as I know, Louis has only 3 cities. Here's the top half of the continent:



This has been a really odd game. I've busted out of a relatively poor start. I don't think I'll be able to launch in the 1700's like I hoped. Oh, well.

Here's the save:

View attachment Zara Yaqob BC-0550.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Deriem]

Why doesn't the AI love me as much?! I did an early war against Toku one game and he had 3 cities with 3 archers each! Good thing I had lots of Praets .

Well, I don't know about you, but to me France is looking like a juicy target. You'll need to boost the economy a little before any more conquering can be done, but with Louis out of the picture you'll have free reign over the continent. After that I would prioritise contacting the other civs.

If they're all on the same continent, you should be able to peacefully manipulate them (assuming they're not all Montys and Tokus ) so that you have the undeniable victory (which you really already do). It seems like a good way to showcase the plusses of diplomacy when there is no big threat to yourself.

Good job insofar, keep up the entertaining work!

(Side note: anyone think it's weird to have two trios of resources? The furs in the SW and the sugar(?) in the NE?)

 

[Speedy36]

I noticed that you razed a few cities because you said you couldn't afford them.

How do you determine when it is more profitable to raze the city then to keep them?

 

[DudeManGuy]

Here is my first post. I feel compelled to write aftering reading your walk throughs nonstop for the past week and eagerly awaiting updates.

First, I thank you for doing this. I played Civ I when I was in 5th grade, Civ 2 in high school and up until 2 weeks ago nothing until I got Civ 4. In each of these games I never progressed past Warlord, mainly because I didn't take the time to learn the game. I've grown up and become interested in this game like a massive game of chess. So I sat down, started reading the book, playing, finding resources to learn more about how the game works. It's hard to form a good strategy if you don't know what the rules are. Anyway, I stumbled upon your guides and I have to tell you they've increased my game considerably.

I'm starting to understand the things that make this game work. How to progress in tech, production, defense, culture, etc. I still have lots of questions but they'll get answered as time moves on. I also hope to at some point play with someone online or get a challenge going. If anyone is interested let me know.

I do have a few questions compiled from previous games and the one you are currently on. I'll ask'em and see what happens.

1) How do you sell techs? You've mentioned selling techs, but I can't seem to find out how. Unless you are meaning you find out what people want thru the diplomatic screen, then approach them and try to get gold off them.

2) How do you prevent civilizations from winning diplomatic games when you are trying to domination?

3) Is there any way you can go a little deeper into how to really work the squares. I always seem to cap out on food but it could be because I use to many cottages. I haven't found the balance yet. Any advice would help.

4) How do you know what people have what wonders and where they are. Also how do you know if someone has a shrine in a city.

5) Happiness and unhealthiness. I know you posted a link to this before but I can't find it sifting through all of your previous posts.

Again, I appreciate this, it has really helped. Hopefully someday I can get up to your level of playing until then I'd be happy with a couple of challenges or some online play some Saturday evening till early AM or something.

Thanks again!

 

[Orion071]

Here is my first post. I feel compelled to write aftering reading your walk throughs nonstop for the past week and eagerly awaiting updates.

First, I thank you for doing this. I played Civ I when I was in 5th grade, Civ 2 in high school and up until 2 weeks ago nothing until I got Civ 4. In each of these games I never progressed past Warlord, mainly because I didn't take the time to learn the game. I've grown up and become interested in this game like a massive game of chess. So I sat down, started reading the book, playing, finding resources to learn more about how the game works. It's hard to form a good strategy if you don't know what the rules are. Anyway, I stumbled upon your guides and I have to tell you they've increased my game considerably.

I'm starting to understand the things that make this game work. How to progress in tech, production, defense, culture, etc. I still have lots of questions but they'll get answered as time moves on. I also hope to at some point play with someone online or get a challenge going. If anyone is interested let me know.

I do have a few questions compiled from previous games and the one you are currently on. I'll ask'em and see what happens.

1) How do you sell techs? You've mentioned selling techs, but I can't seem to find out how. Unless you are meaning you find out what people want thru the diplomatic screen, then approach them and try to get gold off them.

First of all, you have to have the Currency tech before you can sell off techs. Once you have Currency, you make a trade just like any other, your tech on one side and their gold on the other.

2) How do you prevent civilizations from winning diplomatic games when you are trying to domination?

If you are going for Domination (~60% of the land and ~50% of the population), then it's highly unlikely that anyone else can win a Diplomatic victory. Votes are determined by population, so if you have over 33% of the population, then you have enough votes to block someone else's diplomatic victory.

3) Is there any way you can go a little deeper into how to really work the squares. I always seem to cap out on food but it could be because I use to many cottages. I haven't found the balance yet. Any advice would help.

This is a complex topic. This post in my first thread shows it a little bit more. It really depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Are you trying to maximize food? Hammers? Science? Different goals means working different tiles. I'm not sure what you mean by "cap out on food" does that mean you run out of food? If your BFC has too many Hills or Plains then you'll need to make sure you have enough Farms or Windmills to work all of your tiles. Cottages are good, but not at the expense of working all of your tiles.

4) How do you know what people have what wonders and where they are. Also how do you know if someone has a shrine in a city.

The Wonders and Cities screen is a tab off of <F9>. It will show you all of the wonders built. It won't tell you where they are unless you have actually seen the city. Shrines are considered wonders and are on the same screen.

5) Happiness and unhealthiness. I know you posted a link to this before but I can't find it sifting through all of your previous posts.

Need Health?

Need Happiness?

 

[Orion071]

Why doesn't the AI love me as much?! I did an early war against Toku one game and he had 3 cities with 3 archers each! Good thing I had lots of Praets .

Well, I don't know about you, but to me France is looking like a juicy target. You'll need to boost the economy a little before any more conquering can be done, but with Louis out of the picture you'll have free reign over the continent. After that I would prioritise contacting the other civs.

If they're all on the same continent, you should be able to peacefully manipulate them (assuming they're not all Montys and Tokus ) so that you have the undeniable victory (which you really already do). It seems like a good way to showcase the plusses of diplomacy when there is no big threat to yourself.

Good job insofar, keep up the entertaining work!

(Side note: anyone think it's weird to have two trios of resources? The furs in the SW and the sugar(?) in the NE?)

Yeah, as I said, this was a really odd game. I can't believe that Gus was so easy to kill. There's no way that France lasts to 1000 AD. Once I get enough Courthouses and Cottages to expand again, France is toast. The whole goal was to take over the continent and then launch.

The trios of resources isn't too surprising. Sugar and Furs especially are ones that come in groups like that.

I noticed that you razed a few cities because you said you couldn't afford them.

How do you determine when it is more profitable to raze the city then to keep them?

Well, early on you can't afford too many cities. If I wasn't Organized then I wouldn't even have as many as I do. Enemy capitals are always worth keeping. Enemy capitals with multiple wonders are a no-brainer. Antium was in a nice spot, but I can always rebuild it later. Neapolis was auto-razed because it was size 1 when I took it out. Cumae was newly built and had no real resources or improvements. I really didn't need it.

 

[Carabodes]

That was way too easy. (Sure you're not playing settler? - I spent one year on settler level in Vanilla, and never did I have such luck!)
Even the barbs stepped in to help you.

And Stonehenge and Great Wall for free + a Holy City, how lucky can you get? (But I suppose those are the reasons for Caesar not having any army to speak of, really shows how being a wond-aholic can get you killed.)

I surely hope the war against Louis will be a bit heavier, or I'll never learn warfaring from this game - but then again, the game was planned as a peaceful victory, so maybe it's just right that the wars should not dominate.

Since you now have the GW, is there any chance of spymissions against Louis before you (and your barbarian allies ) take him out?

 

[eewallace]

Well, that was strange, seeing Augustus sitting around building wonders in the beginning of the game! (I once saw Willem do the same thing, and took him out with just warriors and chariots.)

Your newly acquired great wall may well produce a great spy to use against Louis fairly quickly.

And with your new shrine, you may want to invest in a few religious buildings as well as the courthouses to fix your financial woes.

I've managed some early space-ship launches (space race is my favorite) but never without grabbing free techs (oracle, liberalism, stealing them...). Should be interesting to see how early you can get into space from this start!

 

[Orion071]

ROUND 3 (550 BC - 340 AD)

This could end up being a fairly boring round of economic buildup. My main problem isn't my economy, though, it's my incredibly bad happiness problem. A major goal of this round is to increase my happiness cap.

Turn 140: Lalibela finishes a Colosseum. Even with that, its happiness cap is a pathetic 5. It starts on a Spy. I'm going to see if I can steal some techs from Louis.

Turn 141: Rome finishes its Colosseum and starts on a Barracks. It's a natural production city with all of its Hills and Cows.

Turn 142: Aksum finishes its Colosseum as well. I don't have Monarchy for Hereditary Rule, but I can build the Pyramids instead. Aksum goes into full production mode. I'll send all of my Workers there to chop it out. With no bonuses to construction it's still going to take a while.

Turn 145: My first Spy is done and I start another. I'll want at least 3 of them in case some missions fail.

Turn 149: Gondar starts on a Spy as well.

Turn 151: Currency is in and it gives me a nice bump to my research rate. I also can up the science slider back to 70%. Code of Laws is next and it will be done in 10 turns.

Turn 158: Grrr. My Spy was caught in Louis's territory before I could stay 5 turns for the maximum espionage discount. Well, I'll order up more of them. The good news is that Buddhism spreads naturally to Yeha, giving it +1 happiness.

Turn 161: Code is Laws is done and with it, Confucianism is founded in Addis Ababa. On the very same turn, it naturally spreads to Aksum and Lyons! So Napolean will convert next turn. I'm thinking that I'll switch as well so he doesn't get too mad at me.

Turn 162: I convert and so does Napolean. Sailing is next, because I need it both for Calendar and eventually Optics.

Turn 164: Sailing is done and I start on Calendar. I only have the 1 Silk right now, but I can Settle a city south of Rome for the Spices.

More importantly, The Pyramids are finally finished. I revolt to Representation. I've been using a few scientist specialists, so the bonus will be very helpful.

Turn 165: Here's my first chance to steal something:



Very cheap, but a poor % chance. It works, and Mysticism is mine. Too bad I already have Stonehenge! I'm going to conduct future missions in Lyons because you get an additional 25% discount if the city has your state religion.

Now that I'm in Representation I have a higher happiness cap, so I switch my cities to growth to take advantage.

Turn 166: St. Peter (Great Prophet) is born in Rome. Since Confucianism has spread to Louis, I figure that the Confucian Shrine is a better bet than the Buddhist one. Peter is off to Addis Ababa. My Spies keep getting caught before they can stay long enough to get the max discount. All of my cities are building Courthouses, so I can't replace them quite yet. I only have 2 left.

Turn 168: St. Peter builds the Kong Maio. It's only worth 4 gpt right now, but will be a whole lot more pretty soon.

Turn 170: Rome finishes my first Courthouse. It will build a Settler to grab the 2 Spice tiles.

Turn 174: Calendar is done. I'm going for Civil Service next. I want to tap into the potential of my capital with Bureaucracy.

Next on the Spy radar:



This was also successful at 64% odds. Not bad. I'm pretty sure that I don't lose the EP's if the mission fails, just the Spy. Well, I can afford to lose a Spy, but 222 EP's are hard to get back.

I have 2 sources of Iron: one in the BFC of Addis Ababa, and the other in the desert just outside of Lalibela. Louis also has a source of Iron, but I figured that out when my Scouts ran into one of his Swordsmen. Louis's melee units got that Tower Shield Event that gives them all Cover. Bad if he attacks me, but I don't plan on that happening.

Turn 175: Somebody finally builds the Oracle. Well, better late than never. I probably could have built it in 6 turns in Aksum if I had Priesthood.

Turn 176: Louis goes into Organized Religion, so he must have Monotheism now. Well, I haven't stolen that far up the line yet, but I'm getting closer:



Yup, that's 3-for-3. I switch to research Monotheism myself. It will only take 2 turns at 100% science and I want to have Organized Religion. I need to spread my religion around for more happiness and more money.

Turn 178: Monotheism is in and it's back to Civil Service. The Settler is done in Rome. I start on some Catapults for the eventual takeover of France. I make yet another civics switch to OR.

Turn 179: Confucianism spreads to 2 more French cities. I found Debre Berhan:



A city of mostly convienence only, although it does give me 3 resources. The lack of food means it will be a mediocre city at best.

Turn 187: 4-for-4:



Once Louis runs out of techs for me to steal, his usefulness will be at an end. After Civil Service comes Metal Casting and Machinery and then Macemen will take down Louis.

Turn 190: Civil Service is in and I make the civics switch. I don't think I've ever researched Civil Service before Metal Casting before. Or Monarchy. What an odd game.

Turn 191: Going for the clean sweep:



Oh! I finally failed one of these missions. Well, I have another Spy there, but I can't try again for a few more turns. This is the last tech that Louis has on me. It was nice knowing you...

Turn 196: I successfully steal Meditation from Louis. I also finish Metal Casting. Forges will go up in every city.

Well, I'm going to stop here. My economy is plenty healthy, and my cities all have a happiness cap of 10 or 11. Here's a shot of my Domestic Advisor:



As I said, Forges everywhere. Right now, I'm configured for growth and production, so my total science is only +122/turn. If I put back all off my Representation-powered Scientists, I could get that up to 180/turn easily. So my Science is actually far better than is shown there.

One big disappointment is the lack of Forge metals on the continent. No Silver, Gold or Gems anywhere. Even Louis doesn't have any. I guess I'll have plenty to trade for when I contact the other continent.

After Machinery, I'm going to get Aesthetics and Literature to build the Great Library in Aksum. Then I'll get Compass and Optics to reach the other side.

Next round will be a quick buildup of Macemen, and then a quick and ugly war to claim the continent as mine.

Here's the save:

View attachment Zara Yaqob AD-0340.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[13thMonkey]

Just to say I'm really enjoying these posts.

I win on Noble 90% of the time, Prince about 50-50 and Monarch only after a good start. I'm finding BTS a lot harder than Warlords (possibly because I haven't played Civ for a while so it's taking me time to get up to speed with the changes and get back into the game in general).

I've been playing along whilst trying to avoid too many spoilers until I've reached the stage you're at. For example, I wiped out Gus (cats and swords) and then discovered that you managed it with axes (and I understand why). But more importantly you wanted to keep him alive to sue for peace + techs, which I would have never thought of!

I'm looking forward to seeing how you do Space Race because it combines the major elements of production and tech which can also be leveraged for conquest/domination. In particular, I've never launched before the 20th Century on Noble so I want to see where I'm going wrong!

Keep posting the game saves because trying to play from where you left off and then reading your posts and then looking at your next save in detail is improving my game a lot

 

[Deriem]

Not the most exciting of rounds, but it shows how effective spies can be in keeping up in Tech. Have you ever tried forsaking all science in favour of stealing all the techs? Probably inefficient, but it would be fun!

Next up, liberating the Snails from the opressive French! An exciting lesson in early-midish warfare. More mace than a bear like Louis can handle. Don't touch your dial!

Question: if you Declare on someone who's on another continent, will your land units be magically expelled across the sea, or just moved as far away from a city as possible? Might be a future tactic for me if the latter is true. I'm playing a game where 5/7 civs are one continent, so if I can get a good war going on the other side, I might be looking at a Domination victory.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You just get kicked from cultural borders, so you stay on the continent if there are civs you have open borders with or neutral territory.

I once had an explorer get kicked across an ocean though without a boat, what a swimmer

 

[Speedy36]

+122 beakers/turn?? Already?

Ok, now I feel like a noob.

Could you post a screen shot of your science city?

 

[KMadCandy]

2) How do you prevent civilizations from winning diplomatic games when you are trying to domination?

If you are going for Domination (~60% of the land and ~50% of the population), then it's highly unlikely that anyone else can win a Diplomatic victory. Votes are determined by population, so if you have over 33% of the population, then you have enough votes to block someone else's diplomatic victory.

bzzzzzzzt! not true for AP victories. votes there are determined by population in cities with the AP religion, the total population of the world doesn't matter a bit. if you don't have and don't want the AP religion, since the AP owner can't even try for diplo victory until everybody gets the religion, you can use theocracy, and station spies in all cities so that hopefully he can't use spies to take you out of theocracy. but even if you win all the RNG rolls, there is no way to guarantee that a non-state religion won't spread to your cities in BtS if you have random events on. there are random events and quest rewards that can spread your state religion to another civ's cities, even cities that have a religion already, and theocracy doesn't stop that.

so, to prevent an AP diplo victory, you kind of have to pray.

As far as I know, Louis has only 3 cities.

hey mr. lazy, you can always check to be sure. open trade negotiations with him! okay, not really always. in OCC his cities won't show up *giggle*

I don't think I've ever researched Civil Service before Metal Casting before.

seriously? you don't do OCC much do you? bureaucracy is amazingly overpowered there for obvious reasons. and the major reason for most early wars is gone ... i won't ever need to expand, more land is useless to me. so unless i need to cut somebody down early for another reason, CS ASAP baybee.

 

[tboner23]

I just realized how much the Heroic Epic helps with that early-mid war. I have had a weird game going where I over expanded distance-wise, and then forgot to road my copper that I went so far to get and ended up losing a great production site to barbs I quickly researched archery and got the IRON that I had just researched to build some swordsmen and take it back. Of course this happened right as I was going to start building up an army to tackle my neighbors Needless to say I had to take extra time and build up some defenses instead of offensive units and so I had the Heroic Epic built before my army. My military production city has now built my entire invasion stack and will start producing Longbows to guard all of my captured cities. For once, I don't think the AIs stand a chance

 

[Orion071]

I've been playing along whilst trying to avoid too many spoilers until I've reached the stage you're at. For example, I wiped out Gus (cats and swords) and then discovered that you managed it with axes (and I understand why). But more importantly you wanted to keep him alive to sue for peace + techs, which I would have never thought of!

I did want to sue Gus for peace + techs, but that wasn't the only reason to keep him alive. With only 1 city left, I doubt I could have sued for any of Gus's techs at all. But I needed him alive so I could TRADE for any techs I didn't have. AI's (except sometimes Mansa) won't trade you what they consider a monopoly tech. If Louis an I are the only 2 alive, everything he has is a monopoly tech. That's why I couldn't make any trade with him and why I had to bust out the Spies.

Not the most exciting of rounds, but it shows how effective spies can be in keeping up in Tech. Have you ever tried forsaking all science in favour of stealing all the techs? Probably inefficient, but it would be fun!

If you name a wacky variant, there's almost always an SG that's done it already:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=235474
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=235713

Honestly, the techs I stole from Louis could have been researched in about 15 turns. But where's the fun in that?

+122 beakers/turn?? Already?

Ok, now I feel like a noob.

Could you post a screen shot of your science city?

I'm at work so no screenshots for now. Aksum is my main science city since Bureaucracy helps quite a bit. Aksum is an odd hybrid, with tons of Cottages, but tons of production potential too. Right now it's in wonder mode. I'm building the Forge and then the Mausoleum of Maussollos (which is almost done already). By then I'll have Literature and can build the Great Library. After all of that, I can switch back to full science before Education and Oxford come along.

Like I said before, I'm in growth and production mode right now. In full science mode, I could hit 180 beakers easily. Representation-powered Scientists help quite a bit. I jumped on the Cottages pretty early. Addis, Gondar and Aksum all have a decent number of cottages already, and more are on the way. One of the reasons why not much happened in this last round is because I was working almost all Cottages and no production sites.

bzzzzzzzt! not true for AP victories. votes there are determined by population in cities with the AP religion, the total population of the world doesn't matter a bit. if you don't have and don't want the AP religion, since the AP owner can't even try for diplo victory until everybody gets the religion, you can use theocracy, and station spies in all cities so that hopefully he can't use spies to take you out of theocracy. but even if you win all the RNG rolls, there is no way to guarantee that a non-state religion won't spread to your cities in BtS if you have random events on. there are random events and quest rewards that can spread your state religion to another civ's cities, even cities that have a religion already, and theocracy doesn't stop that.

so, to prevent an AP diplo victory, you kind of have to pray.

OK, Ms. Smartypants, that's true. But with the last nerf to Diplo victories (you can't call the vote if you have enough to elect yourself) it does make it a little bit harder for the AI to win a cheesy victory like that.

hey mr. lazy, you can always check to be sure. open trade negotiations with him! okay, not really always. in OCC his cities won't show up *giggle*

Hello? Welcome to last round. My Scout has been doing his thing and Louis actually has 7 cities right now, the same number as me. However, I think he must only have 1 Worker. Almost none of his land is improved. I haven't seen a single Cottage, and I don't think he's even hooked up all of his resources yet. After the odd behavior of the AI's in this game, I actually went into the Settings tab to make sure this was Noble difficulty and not Settler.

seriously? you don't do OCC much do you? bureaucracy is amazingly overpowered there for obvious reasons. and the major reason for most early wars is gone ... i won't ever need to expand, more land is useless to me. so unless i need to cut somebody down early for another reason, CS ASAP baybee.

The only OCC I've ever played was on Deity level where I won a Domination Victory by forming a permanent alliance with my good pal Mansa. And yes, Bureaucracy is overpowered in that case.

I know that you know that I'm kidding here and you won't take this too seriously.

 

[AlessioCerci]

so, to prevent an AP diplo victory, you kind of have to pray.

Or if that doesn't work for some reason, you can spread the AP religion to all your cities and try and block the vote. And if you don't have the AP religion in any of your cities then there won't be a vote for a diplomatic win.

 

[eewallace]

Nice game so far. I have a request for when you go for Louis. Can you give us a more precise description of your assault on a city or 2? For example, "3 captapults take defense down to 8%, then CR II swordsman with 72% chance of victory attacks and archer defends with a result of..." Or if that is too much trouble, just give a general idea of what odds you are looking for before you attack? (I'm still having trouble gauging how big/what my stacks need to look like when I go for an early-middle game war.)

By the way, do you always try to keep spies in place for 5 turns to get the discount? I almost never do that because it seems that the odds are so great that they will be discovered that it isn't worth it...

 

[DudeManGuy]

Thanks Orion for answering my questions. It goes along way. I actually finished off a Warlord game last night. I hadn't moved on to Noble's yet, I wanted to implement some of the things I've learned. It took me till 1980 to win a domination victory. What put me over the top was taking over a mid sized Barbarian island that I didn't know was there until I got satellites. I went in, finished him off easily, dropped a Great Artist in, had him make a art piece and bam, 64% of the tiles where mine. Best score I've gotten and best rating.

Funny thing is I went on to start a Noble's game and got dominated by Barbarian archers and warriors before the BC's were up. Man what a kick in the pants. It is so hard to find a balance of military production, science, culture, and expansion early. I think I really need to spend some time studying the tech tree and really finding out all of the things that open up with each of the techs and what is next in line afterwards. I could make a better plan that way.

Again, thanks for the advice.