Orion's Home School: Winning at Noble

Found this article discussing vassals. It sheds a little light on what it takes to make an AI surrender.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228750

I've enjoyed this thread quite a bit. I generally do well enough on Prince but haven't made the jump to Monarch, so I found a lot of value here reading an experienced player's thought processes, particularly for early game decisions.

Looking forward to round two ;^)
 
Ok, quick noob question. I just realized, in this thread and another on playing Prince, that there were plenty of early units built but no mention of a barracks. Is this the norm?
 
Found this article discussing vassals. It sheds a little light on what it takes to make an AI surrender.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=228750

I've enjoyed this thread quite a bit. I generally do well enough on Prince but haven't made the jump to Monarch, so I found a lot of value here reading an experienced player's thought processes, particularly for early game decisions.

Looking forward to round two ;^)

I too play on a level above Noble (Noble's a joke, Prince is easy, Monarch is a challenge, and I have yet to beat an Emperor game.) And I learned a lot from this thread. Granted I've only had the game about a month, I know I have a lot to learn, but this thread was very very helpful. Thank you very very much, truly appreciate this.
 
Ok, quick noob question. I just realized, in this thread and another on playing Prince, that there were plenty of early units built but no mention of a barracks. Is this the norm?

Usually not. Because of the City spezialization, there might be citys, where you dont need Barracks, and you might skip barracks for a while, if only building units for fogbusting perhaps. But as soon as you start to build up for war, you need them at least in your Military-Production centers. Even if going for a early rush you should squeze the barracks in somewhere (Of Course Whipping/Chopping them).

I am not sure Orion mentioned building Barracks, but i think they are there :D
 
Orion, What buildings do you recommend building immediately after you capture it? Theaters and libraries for their culture? Or colleseums/religion buildings for happiness? Or courthouses to reduce maint fees?
 
Ok, quick noob question. I just realized, in this thread and another on playing Prince, that there were plenty of early units built but no mention of a barracks. Is this the norm?

Out of my early cities, Vijay produced almost all of my units. I certainly built a Barracks before starting on them. My first few Warriors built by my capital were basically just garrison duty and those don't need a Barracks.

Orion, What buildings do you recommend building immediately after you capture it? Theaters and libraries for their culture? Or colleseums/religion buildings for happiness? Or courthouses to reduce maint fees?

It really depends on the state of the city when you capture it. Almost always I end up with a Theatre first. It's cheap, provides good culture and can reduce happiness problems both with Dyes and the culture slider. If the city is small enough to not need the happiness or the quick border expansion, then you can go with a Courthouse. If the Granary was destroyed, don't forget to replace it as well. Those are really the 3 must-have buildings in a newly-captured city.
 
Thanks for the thread. I'd like to summarize the main points that I gathered from the thread.

1) City Specialization plays a much bigger role then I suspected. Watching how you worked Bombay to increase your tech lead was very useful to me.

2) The speed of your conquest was significantly faster then I had been doing in my games, even though I had similar stacks of units. I had been moving my stack into a city and waiting for the revolt to finish before moving to the next city. Can you flesh out how you choose to move from city to city when you account for healing/defense?

3) Diplomacy was clearly a weak spot in my game. I had been trading techs for even value techs and never considered trying to get a good deal from the AI. I was also refusing all Open Border agreements early in the game until I had decided who my friends were and who I was going to victimize.

4) Courthouses are apparently a good building. I been building markets in every city to try and overcome deficits when I'd conquered a lot of territory. Courthouses seem to be more effective.

I'm looking forward to your next time, and would like to suggest that you tackle Prince. Also, if you're aiming for more interaction I suggest taking on a partner who regularly plays at this level to make some of the decisions for you such as leader selection, city placement, and victory route. Alternately you could simply post some screenshots with the current state of the empire and solicit plans from other players before carrying out your plan, sort of a "guess my plan" game. This would likely mean the game takes longer for you to play out, but it might create the environment you're looking for in this thread.

Thanks again, really enjoyed the thread.
 
I'm looking forward to your next time, and would like to suggest that you tackle Prince.

I think this would defeat the whole purpose of this type of thread. The early ALCs from Sisiutil were at Prince and then moved upwards. This thread and the thread to come, as I understand it, are more aimed at helping people to be competent at playing noble. I'm sure Orion will correct me if I'm wrong. ;)

Also, if you're aiming for more interaction I suggest taking on a partner who regularly plays at this level to make some of the decisions for you such as leader selection, city placement, and victory route. Alternately you could simply post some screenshots with the current state of the empire and solicit plans from other players before carrying out your plan, sort of a "guess my plan" game. This would likely mean the game takes longer for you to play out, but it might create the environment you're looking for in this thread.

The latter idea of soliciting ideas on what to do next might be better but I'm fine if Orion carries on as previously. I know he's already commented on how much work it is to create this type of thread in sufficient detail to be useful.
 
so the game considers this a "conquest" victory even though other civs are still in existence? that's a little odd, I never knew it worked that way with the vassals system. I think this should really be a domination win.
 
Thanks for the thread. I'd like to summarize the main points that I gathered from the thread.

1) City Specialization plays a much bigger role then I suspected. Watching how you worked Bombay to increase your tech lead was very useful to me.

City Specialization isn't a skill you need to master to beat Noble, or even Prince, but it helps. Mainly, it's about opportunity cost. Why waste hammers building a Barracks in a city that will never produce units? Why build a Library in a city that inly produces 3:science:? Those hammers are much better served in building something more appropriate to the city. In my game, Vijay didn't even build a Library until the Renaissance Age and that so I could build a University to unlock Oxford sooner.

2) The speed of your conquest was significantly faster then I had been doing in my games, even though I had similar stacks of units. I had been moving my stack into a city and waiting for the revolt to finish before moving to the next city. Can you flesh out how you choose to move from city to city when you account for healing/defense?

I moved from city to city as quickly as I could. As soon as the city was mine, I moved all of my healthy units to the next city. Any injured units spent a turn or 2 healing and then moved on. This is where the Medic III unit really shines. A unit healing in a city with a Medic III will take a maximum of 2 turns. As soon as a unit healed, I sent it on to catch up to the main stack.

Most of the time, I wasn't concerned with any defense. When I took out Ragnar and Toku, the terrain was such that I didn't really need anyone to guard the newly captured cities. I left them empty and filled them in with newly-built units later.

Even when I took out Stalin and Napolean I wasn't worried about defense. The AI was just turtling in their cities and never sent any units into the field. I wasn't about to waste units guarding cities that weren't going to come under fire. I'm highly aggressive in my war tactics because I want to fight to be over as quickly as possible so I can rebuild.

3) Diplomacy was clearly a weak spot in my game. I had been trading techs for even value techs and never considered trying to get a good deal from the AI. I was also refusing all Open Border agreements early in the game until I had decided who my friends were and who I was going to victimize.

Diplomacy is the hidden feature that separates the good players from the not-so-good. Making friends and keeping them is so incredibly valuable in this game. In the beginning, I was focus on making Ragnar my friend. I sent him a Hindu Missionary to convert him to my religion. I gifted him techs to give me a "Our trade relations are fair and forthright" bonus. I switched to Hereditary Rule which is his favorite civic. I did similar things with Joao. Once Joao was Friendly with me, I knew I didn't have to worry about him attacking and I could focus on destroying everyone else.

At the beginning of the game, Open Borders with everyone. You don't have to decide on friends or enemies until someone asks you to stop trading with someone else. Then you have to decide. You'll never make everyone happy. Trying to please everyone is a good way to end up pleasing no one.

Techs trades are difficult to teach because obviously every game is so different. One thing that escapes a lot of people is the ability to sell of cheap, older techs for cash. I made thousands of gold throughout my game by selling techs like Meditation, Priesthood, Monotheism, Monarchy, even Code of Laws to backwards civs. Not only do you get some nice cash, but it's an easy way to get a +4 "Our trade relations ar fair..." bonus from even your enemies. Just be careful to not trade with your ally's worst enemy.

4) Courthouses are apparently a good building. I been building markets in every city to try and overcome deficits when I'd conquered a lot of territory. Courthouses seem to be more effective.

Courthouses are much more effective than Markets for overcoming deficits. Markets rely on your city already producing a decent amount of gold. A Courthouse can save 6-8 gpt from even the smallest, weakest city.

I'm looking forward to your next time, and would like to suggest that you tackle Prince. Also, if you're aiming for more interaction I suggest taking on a partner who regularly plays at this level to make some of the decisions for you such as leader selection, city placement, and victory route. Alternately you could simply post some screenshots with the current state of the empire and solicit plans from other players before carrying out your plan, sort of a "guess my plan" game. This would likely mean the game takes longer for you to play out, but it might create the environment you're looking for in this thread.

Thanks again, really enjoyed the thread.

I don't really want this to move up to Prince. There's already another series at that level. This is for beginning players and basic knowlegde, and I want to show that everybody should be able to beat Noble.

As far as the interactive part, I don't necessarily mean help with planning my game, but more questions about why I made certain moves or why I built certain things. I know that people have these questions, but are afraid to ask for some reason. I try to explain as much as I can, but I know there's some details that I miss that could be important.

Don't be afraid to ask those questions!
 
If I may, I'd like to offer some counter-commentary for the sake of discussion, always keeping in mind that this thread is dedicated to winning at Noble, and not at any other level.

Orion, What buildings do you recommend building immediately after you capture it? Theaters and libraries for their culture? Or colleseums/religion buildings for happiness? Or courthouses to reduce maintenance fees?

I notice that small cities with a low number of buildings tend to have smaller maintenance. Without exception, I prioritize two things to get the city productive sooner: Granaries to boost population, and culture buildings to get tiles to work on. If you want to raze every single enemy city in sight of your new acquisitions to eliminate their cultural influences, that works, too.

If I need a Market to quell large amounts of unhappiness, I work that first. A big unproductive population is worse than a small liability. Once the city is about size 7 or so and is working, then I start on the Courthouses.

I've tried getting the Courthouses in first, but getting them fast only really works well when you're in Slavery and you intend to cover a lot of ground, really really fast, as Orion does in this thread.

The speed of your conquest was significantly faster then I had been doing in my games, even though I had similar stacks of units. I had been moving my stack into a city and waiting for the revolt to finish before moving to the next city. Can you flesh out how you choose to move from city to city when you account for healing/defense?

At Noble, you don't really have to worry a lot about AI counter-aggression. It's usually weak and obvious. Having said that, you really don't need to wait for revolts to finish before moving on. You only need a full-health stack that's robust enough in defensive units not to get slaughtered.

There are ways to increase health recovery. Medic units are invaluable. Orion here uses the tried and tested Medic III GG, but don't be shy about using "normal" Medic 2 and even Medic 1 units for health recovery. That General can't be everywhere. When you have 2 stacks going forward, having an additional Medic 2 support unit is a great help.

March is also a useful promotion to take advantage of once Construction rolls around, to help recover the damage defensive Catas will inflict on your units.

Courthouses are apparently a good building. I been building markets in every city to try and overcome deficits when I'd conquered a lot of territory. Courthouses seem to be more effective.

It depends on maintenance. When the conquered city is large and relatively near to one of your maintenance reducing buildings (Forbidden Palace, Versailles), Markets can be a good priority for boosting money returns. The further away a city is, and the smaller it is, the more gpt Courthouses will "earn" you. The problem with this is that it's not always possible to build Courthouses fast in small cities. In some cases, you may want to raze the city rather than suck up the maintenance.

In BTS, for overseas conquests, I almost always opt out for the liberation option.
 
I don't really want this to move up to Prince. There's already another series at that level. This is for beginning players and basic knowlegde, and I want to show that everybody should be able to beat Noble.

As far as the interactive part, I don't necessarily mean help with planning my game, but more questions about why I made certain moves or why I built certain things. I know that people have these questions, but are afraid to ask for some reason. I try to explain as much as I can, but I know there's some details that I miss that could be important.

Don't be afraid to ask those questions!
Yes, please stay at noble, it's what lower level players (like myself) and beginners really need, because there's lots of higher levels plays out there, they're helpful too, but sometimes "above my head". I have been following your thread with interest, and at the same time following ALC, and I've learned a lot from both, especially from your detailed explaning. Please continue.

I'm terrible at fighting. It was only after having read through the early ALCs that I started trying, all my previous games had been peacefully persuing cultural, diplomatic or space race victories. So I really don't know what to do with my units when they're not garrisoned. I even had the game set on auto-promote, since I didn't know which promotions to give. And I still don't, so I'm slowly learning it the hard way, by suiciding units that have the wrong promotions, and making stronger the survivers that happened to have the right ones. Now I've turned off the autopromote and am :confused:!

In your next game, could you please give some details about promotions just before you go into battle? Which promotions to give the different units and why? At the moment I'm using only city raider, strength, accuracy and barrage (is it? - the thing that gives cats and trebs more collateral damage), but the different units have so many more options that might have been more useful, I'm not trying them, though, since I'm becoming more reluctant to use suicidal units (apart from catapults, that is), especially since I've just upped myself a level.

I know it's a lot to ask, maybe involving too much details. If you find you can't do it, do you know of any articles about it, can you post a thread-link? I've searched, but without luck.

Thank you so much for all the work you're putting into this. :goodjob:
 
Just my 2 cents worth: I hope you play the next one on noble again rather than moving up. I'm doing pretty well on noble, but I'm experimenting with random starts and I'm clearly still having early troubles when I'm sandwiched in and/or have aggressives next door. Basically, my winning games are ones where I have a good starting position and time and room to build an economy before I have to go to war.
 
@ carabodes: the promotions you want to give are all dependent. usually the biggest piece of advice most experienced players will give you are don't promote your troops right away. you usually dont know which promotions you'll need until you actually start fighting people lol. if you give all your units teh city attack promotion and are then attacked by a large stack of troops, you may have to let them capture a city just to fend them off :lol:. what you want to do is promot some units to specialize against others to defend your stack. example: give an xbow combat I and shock and he'll make a great anti-melee unit to defend your stack from other macemen. if you stack consists only of axemen, give one of them combat I and then promote him to either shock or medic I. shock will protect your stack from other axes and medic will help heal them in between cities. if you're attacking a city, generally the city attack is the best. however, if you're aggressive and are only getting xp from a barracks, it is better to promote your axes with cover. this gives them 35% against attackign archer instead of only 30% and if you meet an archer outside a city, you stil get the bonus. however, this is only give the city isn't defended by axes :crazyeye:. now you can see why many people decide to wait until they have to to promote their troops. a lot of times people will actually not promote their troosp so that they can use the promotion to heal their troops if they are fighting significantly weaker opponents.

how many troops are you suiciding? usually in early axe rushes a lot of your axes will be for suiciding. don't be afraid to suicide if capturing the city is worth it ;). if your opponent is getting fuedalism or already has it, but hasnt upgraded all the units in the city yet, it's probably worth it to suicide against 1 LB and 2 archers than hold a prolonged siege against 3 LBs

NOTE: as for the market vs courthouse, it also depends on the city. as orion mentioned earlier it doesnt make sense wasting :hammers: on a barracks in a city that'll never make units. the same applies to marketplaces. if a city is very :commerce: poor, then it doesnt make sense to build a marketplace there when all it'll net you is maybe 1:commerce:
 
Well, I was going to start the new game tonight, but I just scored a free ticket to the hockey game. :p So you'll have to wait until tomorrow. Go 'Canes!
 
Regarding unit promotions:

When you attach a GG to a unit to get the Med III, what is the general consensus on upgrading that unit. I was under the impression that you should not upgrade those units in order to prevent them from being in a situation where they have to defend and possibly get killed. However, it looked to me like you upgraded your unit to a rifleman. Was this just because of your huge tech advantage?

Have fun at the game!
 
Regarding unit promotions:

When you attach a GG to a unit to get the Med III, what is the general consensus on upgrading that unit. I was under the impression that you should not upgrade those units in order to prevent them from being in a situation where they have to defend and possibly get killed. However, it looked to me like you upgraded your unit to a rifleman. Was this just because of your huge tech advantage?

Have fun at the game!

I think it's best to not upgrade the unit. If you keep it as a Chariot, then it will only defend if the entire stack is destroyed. However, as a Cavalry, it wasn't going down in any case against Longbowmen. Actually, I only used the Great Generals on mounted units, and not a Rifleman. The Medic III is so much more useful with the added movement. In fact, if I can get the unit to level 6, then I'll add Morale for a 3rd movement point. I love the ability to fly from city to city and heal wherever needed.
 
@ carabodes: the promotions you want to give are all dependent. usually the biggest piece of advice most experienced players will give you are don't promote your troops right away. you usually dont know which promotions you'll need until you actually start fighting people lol. if you give all your units teh city attack promotion and are then attacked by a large stack of troops, you may have to let them capture a city just to fend them off :lol:. what you want to do is promot some units to specialize against others to defend your stack. example: give an xbow combat I and shock and he'll make a great anti-melee unit to defend your stack from other macemen. if you stack consists only of axemen, give one of them combat I and then promote him to either shock or medic I. shock will protect your stack from other axes and medic will help heal them in between cities. if you're attacking a city, generally the city attack is the best. however, if you're aggressive and are only getting xp from a barracks, it is better to promote your axes with cover. this gives them 35% against attackign archer instead of only 30% and if you meet an archer outside a city, you stil get the bonus. however, this is only give the city isn't defended by axes :crazyeye:. now you can see why many people decide to wait until they have to to promote their troops. a lot of times people will actually not promote their troosp so that they can use the promotion to heal their troops if they are fighting significantly weaker opponents.
Thank you :goodjob:
From now on, nobody gets a promotion untill they've deserved it. :lol: (Stands in front of the enemy, that is.)

how many troops are you suiciding?
I have no figures for how many I've suicided, but I always have plenty of units, and producing more all the time (at least one city always dedicated to unitproduction, in peace as well as in war, during war they almost all produce units), I always win my battles, and have units left over to continue fighting. ;)
But my heart bleeds for the ones that didn't make it. :cry: (I'm suffering from the illusion that "nobody of mine should have to die!" :crazyeye: - But of course, all enemies should die! :mischief:)
 
I think Nabe may have confused your woodsman 3 leadership warrior that you upgraded with a GG unit.
 
What I'm waiting for are continental battles.

In a recent game I played, it was a standard continent map. Using this thread tactics I took out all the civs on my continent.

Apparently on the other continent was Montezuma, Victoria, Mansa, and Khan (Mongolia).

Montezuma took out Vicky and Mansa, the same time I took out Peter and Julius. His land size was slightly less than mine, nevertheless he was still huge. Khan was still using axemen to Monty's macemen, had a different religion than Monty but they were still friends, go figure.

To get to the point, I tried to attack him when I had artillery and he had rifleman. I razed a few of his cities but he was always wiping out my Stacks of Doom. I had 24 mixed units of tanks, navy seals, artillery, and SAM infantry, but Monty still wiped them out in 3 turns with cannons, rifleman, and cavalry.

I ended up winning a time victory by 1000 points with both of us at equivalent technology.

My question is, how do you deal with a warlord, who mass produces troops and who owns 33k acres of land to your 40k on a different continent?
 
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