OSG 24 - The Guns of Sssla

[ToddMarshall]

If you think that will work, great. I usually don't make huges, but I think for taking the humans out, those would work better, but whatever works. We definitely cant make small bombers. An entire stack would die in 1 shot. We could make small Hyper-X boats though, if we're careful with them.

 

[Catwalk]

I won't be playing yet, so we have time to debate the matter a bit And I'm very open to suggestions, not sure what's best.

Small w/2x-Hyper X sounds great, they could wipe out the human medium ships in no time.

.....And

My wife has stolen my computer and sent me into the kitchen to be her slave for the rest of the night.

 

[ToddMarshall]

The only ship that's a problem is that dread. The other designs could be killed by IC fighters if they didn't have to worry about that energy pulsar.

The advantage to the Huge design is you could probably build 2 of the bomber design and one of the beam design as a decoy to their fleet, and that's all you'd need (though I really dislike building huge beam ships in most cases), as the humans couldn't overcome the autorepair, so you could safely ignore their fleet.

I won't say no to small missile boats of H-X or better very often, though, so I'm fine with that as long as we make sure to make enough of them. Those have the advantage of being reusable and useful vs lots of things.

My general inclination for fleet building is to build small missile boats, small bombers, and fighters whenever possible, and use the missile boats to take out things like that dread, then let the other ships clean up. I know that would work, and the fleet would be reusable, but, it'd take more time to build a fleet to deal with their fleet than a dread fleet that can ignore their fleet.

EDIT: Also of note if we're thinking of going for the Meklar next (man the Silicoids look a LOT easier)... the Meklar now have SCATTER PACKS. We'd need to make sure we have a stack of bombers large enough to kill their bases in one shot or at worst two (with attrition) as those things will smoke smalls. I'm starting to think auto repair dreads with shield 5 might be the way to go, even though that goes against what I'd usually do.

 

[Catwalk]

Leaning towards a whole bunch of different designs right now If we're going with a Huge AR bomber, I think I'd want Zortrium II. Which is also the only ship I'd want Sublight on, their efficiency is way bad at all high power ship designs I'm seeing.

One thing of note is that humans have really good ECM tech and really bad BC tech. This means that their missiles will have a hard time hitting us (and that our ECM will be highly effective), but also that our bombs might not hit very accurately without good BC.

Sooo many options.... Going to play sometime tomorrow, keep the suggestions coming!

EDIT: Also, Fusion Drives are coming soon. May well be worth waiting for, especially for bombers.

 

[jmas]

Nicely done, Ref. I liked your "conversations" with the spies, although it was SO in-character it almost sounded like you really did intend to steal other things like Enhanced Eco and misclicked or something.

Not sure about atmospheric to the Klackons, but otherwise looks good.

I'm also not sure about Atmospheric to the Klackons, but it does look like you and others have some good ideas for huge ships.

Are we allowed to grow pop on our planets or not.

I looked at the rules again before playing my turnset. There is nothing prohibiting growing pop. Unless you feel that it's somehow contrary to the spirit of the variant (I'm not sure what the rationale would be--cloned Sakkra pop out too prematurely to lock, load, aim and fire the weapons provided to other hatchlings at birth? Which if we had better tech would be called "My First Fusion Rifle" )? =)

Catwalk, your game ideas at RB look interesting, although if you envision getting started in the next month and a half, I may not be able to play, as my schedule for that time is getting pretty busy.

 

[Catwalk]

I agree that cloning is allowed, and sending an invasion fleet of transports to the humans does indeed sound like the safest way to get through elections. Although hiding pop that way is kind of cheating Should we try and tough it out through diplo? Would be kind of disappointing to get into Final War, although we might have a fighting chance if we first get all Human tech and then steal a bunch of Meklar tech at Antares.

 

[Catwalk]

I'm approaching a decision about ship design, and plan on starting playing tonight. I want to whip out some Large Sublight missile boats, sporting 23x2 Hyper-X Rockets (or 16x5) for 474 BC with attack level 4 (BC mk3 + Battle Scanner). If I want Inertial Stabilizer on it we'll be paying 506 BC for 18 rockets. No shields. Medium and Huge designs both give higher cost per rocket, and Small means I'll be stuck with attack level 1 against ships with missile defenses of between 4 and 6.

I'll be adding Bombers to that as soon as Fusion Drives have arrived, probably Medium. I'm hoping to have whittled down their fleets in the meantime. Also thinking about adding a single Huge with Fusion Beams right away to distract their fleet while my missiles chip away. I'm even considering Heavy Fusion Beams to be able to punch through base shields

If you want to convince me this is lunacy, there is still time

 

[ToddMarshall]

I think you're nuts, and I could probably not make those designs work, but if YOU can, then go for it.

Also, it's not cheating to send pop that way. Send it all to Sol, knock out their bases before it gets there, and then send it on to the next planet.

 

[Catwalk]

Tactical concerns:
1) If I fire Hyper-X on the first round at their dread, will it be able to back off safely?
2) What accuracy should I expect with attack level 4 or 6 vs missile def 6?

I want to be able to whittle down their forces a bit while waiting for the bombers and our dread to arrive, not sure if that's feasible.

 

[jmas]

Tactical concerns:
2) What accuracy should I expect with attack level 4 or 6 vs missile def 6?

With attack level = defense level, roughly 50% of missiles should hit. With Def greater by 1 (eg 6 vs 5), 40% should hit. Def 2 greater, 30% hit, and so on.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Not sure about the feasibility of the whittle strat. Remember, they would have to retreat to our nearest planet before attacking again, and the nearest planet is through a nebula. Not sure the rest of their fleet is an issue other than the dread design. They'll probably retreat once the bases are destroyed.

 

[Catwalk]

Ah, I didn't know that repeated combat was banned. That would make it less feasible, yes.

120 rockets will need to hit the dread to take it out, which means around 240 will need to be fired. Huge is comparable with Large for BC mk5, Large wins out for BC mk3. A single Huge can hold 113x2 rockets (or 76x5).

Current plan:
1) Build a single huge beam ship at Dolz with focus on staying power
2) Build a bunch of large missile ships at Beta Ceti, 5-shot
3) Send both to Trax to defend against a potential invasion
4) Wait for Fusion Drives to come in before building bombers

Still accepting feedback, I might just chicken out on all of it and go with majority opinion (huge beam ship + huge bomber ship).

 

[jmas]

As long as it's not a Huge missile "boat". That's a little even by my standards (and I'm pretty ). I would want to see a Design screenie before I'd be on board with that.

 

[Catwalk]

Well, what's the argument against a huge missile boat? It has equal cost efficiency as a large one, assuming high BC required. Medium and small fall far behind, unless we want a low BC tech on it. If it's threatened it can sustain a hit or two before falling.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Whatever you think you can make work is good with me. I once thought a scatter pack boat with maneuver 1 (or 2, cant remember) was a stupid idea, and the things turned out to be totally awesome, so just because an idea seems odd TO ME doesn't mean it doesn't have merit.

If it wasn't for the nebula, I'd be all for the whittle strategy. I like missile boats, and just because the whittle won't work as well HERE, doesn't mean it won't be useful elsewhere, or in later campaigns. Missile boats tend to have a long shelf life, though I prefer to build them with merc or above.

The advantage to using huges against the humans is that you could pop 2/3 of what you need in 1 turn with the placeholders, and could produce another huge quickly using reserves, while building some missile designs at the other rich world. This is a fairly cheap fleet investment wise.

If it were me, I'd just wait a turn or 2 and hope the new construction and engines hit, and go from there. If we send the pop to invade sol the turn before the election, we won't lose this election, and we don't have to have the fleet arrive until the turn the first of the colonists do.

 

[jmas]

You may have a point: maybe I'm a bit too attached to my pattern of building Medium missile boats (which I love) once I have enough tech for good ones. But it is a little hard to swallow the idea of a Large or Huge that might have no weapons after 5 shots (of course if we win our battles by then, then no harm, no foul).

But perhaps no beams could be OK; let's try setting it aside. I think this Large design (below) is better than a Large with BC-3. Why? Because you said we're facing a Missle Def of 6. With Attack level 7 (BC 5 + Scanner + 1 for Hyper-X Rockets) we can score 120 hits with about 200 missiles fired. (Att level 5 (BC 3 + Scanner + 1 for Hyper-X Rockets) requires 300 missiles fired). For the sake of calculation, assume you want to do it in one shot. Then it costs about 10,650 for this design vs. 12,738 for Larges with BC-3. No, you don't need to do it in one shot...but guess which ship has a longer shelf life? The one with a BC 2 levels higher is likely to be useful for longer.



There is also a Medium possibility, which has only Attack level 6 with missiles (no Scanner) but has an Ion Cannon. Leaving the cannon aside, you would need 240 missiles fired, so a cost of about 14880 for comparison with the above. But it does have an Ion Cannon which is definitely worth something...though perhaps not 4000 BC.



I'm going to rest for a bit. I'm from night shift 2 nights ago. So I'm not up to looking into Huges in the same depth right now (but someone else can if they want ).

 

[Catwalk]

Agree about BC mk5, I'll definitely be using that. I guess we can put off an invasion a while longer, seeing as new big techs are looming. I don't quite agree about Zortium armour and maneuver 3, seem like a waste to me on a missile boat if we're planning on having a huge beam ship to soak up damage.

I'll be playing and reporting tonight (in about 10 hours), sorry about the delay.

 

[Catwalk]

Teaser alert!

Spoiler :

I wasn't comfortable with hiding our population to dodge the election, so I tried something else. Silicoids only needed IIT8 and Hydrogen Fuel Cells before allowing themselves to be bought This means we're in no great rush to wipe out the humans, so I'll wait for incoming tech before building any ships. In the meantime I'll be seeding Advanced Soil Enrichment heavily.

 

[Zed-F]

Don't forget that the bigger the ship is, the relatively more it costs to maintain. One argument against using larger size classes than you need to is it's more expensive in the long run for the same amount of firepower. Big ships tend to be more durable overall, but that only matters if you build them for staying power.

 

[Catwalk]

Hey Zed-F, good to see you Are you signing up for the next SG?

I was only comparing costs, and I think upkeep costs are a fixed percentage of construction cost. So if the cost per rocket is cheaper for a Large (or Huge, although it isn't in this case) that should also mean that's a cheaper way to maintain a given fleet size. Small ships are better for low tech missile boats (as BC and shield tech are relatively cheaper on larger hulls), but at a high level of BC tech the larger sizes seem to come out ahead.

Does anyone ever use combined missile and beam ships? Other than using available space to toss on a gun, or using a single missile to mess with AI decisions.

Also, would there be objections to me doing my report piece-meal as I go along? Helps motivate me that way, instead of waiting for the whole thing to be done.