OSG7a Always War Hard -- Once more, with feeling!

[Zed-F]

Why bomb Phyco? We could have captured tech there. Now we are unlikely to get anything (except possibly the planet of course.) I'd also have timed all my troops to arrive in a single wave from multiple planets, as that tends to be much more effective. Moreover I would have timed the troops to arrive at the same time my fighters did, since we had already scouted the world. I think it will probably be more likely that the Klackon fleet will react to our attacks with this piecemeal approach, and our gains will be less (in terms of tech and time required to rebuild the planet's factories and defenses.)

I would have gone with Radiated over Toxic. It's not that much more expensive, will advance us in the tree as Toxic will not, and there is a nearby Radiated world to our north. But Toxic could work out too. Regarding Terraforming +30, that would have been ok as well. I wouldn't be overly concerned about letting the fact that we will need to build facs and people while at war stop us from taking techs that will improve our economy. We will be at war with someone from now until the end of the game, and we will need to do that anyway just to keep up on research.

The tech choice isn't what I would have gone with but it should be ok, so I'm not worried about it. The invasion plan could have used some more thought, IMHO.

EDIT: regarding building more NPG fighters, I wouldn't at this time. What we will need to secure Phyco is a base, more than fighters (unless the Klacks have a new ship design.)

Maniac, up to you to see if we can capture and hold Phyco!

 

[Zed-F]

Wow I am really lost here. I copied all the saves from my Win98 to my current XP system. I start the game and it only shows save1 from 2385?

I am at a loss as to what is going on. I see all the saves in the directory. I deleted the save1 and started the game up again. It then had no load choices, but would let me continue. That turned out to be 2385 as well.

As an aside, I notice that the installer was written by Brain Reynolds, back when Sid and he were at MicroProse.

I put a post in OSG6 about this, I think you just need to reinitialize your save slots in your XP system by starting a game and saving it to each of your save file slots. Then you should be able to copy in whatever you want.

 

[vmxa]

I doubted we could get enought pop to Phyco to take it down with its full capacity. I would further be concerned that they could get up a MB or two before we could get there. It was at least 11 turns from Duantis. I guess we could if we send massive numbers form oth planets, the rest could not be used for much.

I don't see the difference betwen all getting there on trun 11 or some on turn 9 and some on turn 11. Maybe you can enlighten me on the vlaue. It is not like they will grow them back or even replace them from elsewhere.

As to waiting to time the fleet, why? You say they may send the main fleet, ok they may, not sure if I know what the trigger is for that and we could not handle it anyway. Not until we get a lot more than we had in place.

As to stealing tech form capturing planet that is all a big wish. You need about 50 factories to get 1 tech, they did not have that many. You get a 2% chance per factory.

So we will either be lucky and get one or not. Bombing would have little effect. I know more thought on my part would change nothing, maybe you can show me a good reason to reconsider. I always like to learn.

Let me correct that last statement, the more I think about it the more I suspect we should have bombed them close to dead as we could. I would forgo my limited chance to get one tech to be sure to get the planet and not send so many colonist.

 

[vmxa]

I put a post in OSG6 about this, I think you just need to reinitialize your save slots in your XP system by starting a game and saving it to each of your save file slots. Then you should be able to copy in whatever you want.

Going to try that now. I thought I use to delete all the saves and load, but I may be wrong. I hope that is it, in fact if it not then I have no clue.

 

[vmxa]

Ok that was it, I should have tried that.

 

[Zed-F]

I doubted we could get enought pop to Phyco to take it down with its full capacity.

Why? It wouldn't have been hard to send half from Xudax and Fierias and have them regrow pop with ECO spending. That would have been 80 pop right there, which should have been ample.

I would further be concerned that they could get up a MB or two before we could get there.

So you shoot them down with the NPG fighters. The Klacks have shield 2 and nuclear missles, you had 150 fighters -- ample to take out a couple bases under those conditions.

I don't see the difference betwen all getting there on trun 11 or some on turn 9 and some on turn 11. Maybe you can enlighten me on the vlaue. It is not like they will grow them back or even replace them from elsewhere.

You give the Klacks less warning of your intent to take their planet if your troops and the fleet all arrive at once. Even if taking out the planet's defenders isn't enough to get their fleet to respond, staging an unsuccessful invasion might be sufficient. Also you get their planet down to the middle of the growth curve, meaning they get to grow more troops while your additional stacks arrive. Four turns at the middle of the growth curve is about an additional 10 pop for a planet that size. Not tons, but not an insignificant amount either for this stage of the game. That's more casualties for us, which means it will take longer to stand up the planet or we will need to send more total pop in the first place.

As to stealing tech form capturing planet that is all a big wish. You need about 50 factories to get 1 tech, they did not have that many. You get a 2% chance per factory.

From the report, it looks like they had those 50 factories before you started bombing. So not much wishing there. Moreover, it means it will be a LOT harder for us to build a missle base to really secure that planet. As you pointed out, our fleet won't be enough against that big stack if it comes, but a missle base would have been, and we could have rushbuilt one reasonably quickly with reserve pumping and a total focus on base construction for the first couple turns. Now I'm not sure we can hold the planet.

I would NEVER bomb a planet we intend to capture and hold. If we intend to capture but not hold it (e.g. it's an indefensible spud or ultra-poor we're using to bait the AI) or we want to raze it rather than capture it, then bombs away. But for capture and hold it makes zero sense to bomb the planet.

 

[dathon78]

The difference for the invasion time is pop regrowth.

Let's say you're invading a size 100 planet with 140 troops (bit on the thin side, but doable). Equal tech footing. You schedule 70 troops from 2 planets immediately, so there is a 3 turn delay between them. Your first wave takes out 60 (bit of bad luck, but definitely within probability). So the planet is now at pop 40. However, the enemy now has 3 turns to grow/buy pop ahead of your second wave, probably at least 10 troops. So instead of facing 100, you've now faced ~110, possibly a lot more. This only gets worse as you split further/increase the delay.

Another reason I've noted is that the AI almost always tries to reinforce after a failed invasion, meaning when you DO take the world, you must be prepared to shoot down incoming transports or face them on the ground. Usually not too much of an issue, but it's there and could make a difference in a tight situation.

As for the invasion of Phyco, I personally would have sent max from Fierias, especially since it jsut maxed eco, put the planet on max exo spending, and reinforced as necessary from Arietias and Rana timed to hit the planet at the same time. Would have been more than enough, and we probably would have taken at least one, if not two techs.

dathon

 

[dathon78]

Cross posted with Zed

 

[vmxa]

Guys it was a size 50 and is down to 4x or some such. It is not going to grow more a few.

50 is one tech, 13 is a 26% chance to get one. I fail to see it as a huge thing. We were not going to get 3 or 4 tech at any time. True it is always better to capture factories to speed things up.

By the time that fleet could come back we will be ready for it. Bases or no bases.

80 pop that was working 3 factories apiece, that is a lot of lost income. I am not much for dumping any more than I have to into captures early in the game. Those one that the Manic had 40 or 50 pop too many made me cringe. That is something I may do very late in the game when you can crank out 40 in one turn, with no strain.

Again when I come for planets in my games, they do not need to be stood up, they will be defended. I would rather not strip my good planets. I don't care about getting new ones up at the expense of ones that are already up.

I am not sure I understand the bit about toxic not advancing things, but radiated does? Actually I figured what ever I choose it would be viewed as wrong by someone. On my own I would have taken the +30.

 

[Zed-F]

Guys it was a size 50 and is down to 4x or some such. It is not going to grow more a few.

The point is it will go down to ~20-25 or so when you invade with 20-odd pop, then it will start growing again at the middle of the curve. The growth point was about the piecemeal invasion, not about the bombing.

50 is one tech, 13 is a 26% chance to get one. I fail to see it as a huge thing. We were not going to get 3 or 4 tech at any time.

Every bit helps, right? Fusion Bombs is 1700 RP. Capturing that essentially pays for the eco spending to regrow pop for the invasion. Destroying the factories means we will eat the cost of the invasion without getting anything to show for it except a planet we will have to spend a lot of money on if we want to rebuild and defend it.

True it is always better to capture factories to speed things up.

Exactly. That's just as important as the tech standpoint. If we capture a planet with factories intact, that planet can reach full productivity much faster, and can defend itself by building shields and bases much sooner.

By the time that fleet could come back we will be ready for it. Bases or no bases.

Really? Are you certain? Their 600+ fighters plus assorted larges versus our 150 NPGs? I'm not so sure; in fact I tend to doubt it. Even if our fleet can stand off theirs, it can't do so without massive losses, at which point we will need to build our fleet up again. That's *more* money spent on fleet production that could otherwise have gone to research. I thought you didn't like building lots of ships?

80 pop that was working 3 factories apiece, that is a lot of lost income. I am not much for dumping any more than I have to into captures early in the game. Those one that the Manic had 40 or 50 pop too many made me cringe. That is something I may do very late in the game when you can crank out 40 in one turn, with no strain.

80 pop working 3 factories each... and you lose the income from those planets for the ~4 years it takes to regrow it. Yes, it's a fair amount of money. However, if we get even one decent tech out of the deal -- if we get Fusion Bombs and don't have to research our own tier 3 weapons tech, for instance -- then that pays for the cost of the invasion by itself. There's no way those 2 planets can produce 1700 RP in just the few turns it takes to regrow pop from half full! Plus, what about the cost saved in rebuilding those factories you bombed? What about the cost saved in needing fewer ships to defend the planet, by having it able to build a base (a much better deterrent for laser fighters?)

Again when I come for planets in my games, they do not need to be stood up, they will be defended. I would rather not strip my good planets. I don't care about getting new ones up at the expense of ones that are already up.

You are not much for early attacks, I know, but we are not waiting for High Energy Focus and building an unstoppable fleet to go on the offensive. Especially not since we don't have a big enough empire to get that kind of tech lead -- the ability to regrow 40 pop in a turn is a long way off, assuming we even get there. Well, we're here to learn about early combat, right?

Stripping your good planets for a few turns is not that big a deal if you can make sure the gains are worth it. Cost-benefit is the name of the game here. Our costs to invade are about the same in turns of pop sent regardless of whether we bomb or not. If you prefer to send more from developing worlds and fewer from core worlds, you can, but ultimately you still need to send about 80-100 pop to get the job done. Howver, the benefit in terms of factories and tech captured and ease of defending the conquest (i.e. less ships needed for defense) are vastly reduced if we bomb. And capturing 50 factories and a whole new planet we can be reasonably confident of being able to defend are definitely worth the cost of a few turns of eco spending on our core worlds, even before considering the possibility of tech theft!

Bottom line: captured worlds with factories are valuable additions to the empire, which can defend themselves and provide a positive contribution to the empire relatively quickly. Captured worlds with no factories are 'spuds' -- often difficult or impossible to defend, subject to constant skirmishes to capture and recapture, and require much larger investments to turn into useful planets. You bomb a world with factories when you want to deny its value to the AI without having to be bothered to actively defend it yourself. You might even bomb and then capture it in such a case, to use as bait for AI attacks. But if you are planning to capture and defend it yourself, you want to keep as many factories as possible.

I am not sure I understand the bit about toxic not advancing things, but radiated does? Actually I figured what ever I choose it would be viewed as wrong by someone. On my own I would have taken the +30.

Toxic does not advance us in planetology (meaning we don't get to see new techs we could research) because it's in the same tier as Enhanced Eco, which we just researched. Radiated is in the next tier up. You can check the tech charts to see what techs are in what tiers (1-5, 6-10, 11-15, etc.) Terraforming +30 would have been a valid call, mainly because it's cheap and provides a decent boost, though it wouldn't advance us in the tree either (again, same tier as Enhanced Eco.)

 

[vmxa]

Nay it is not about that, I just do not play blitz in Moo. It is not interesting to me to whack the AI down as fast as I can, so I can start another game.

So I am not going to make the best choices as I just do not have any expericence with it. I would not be interested in invading with 1 speed engines.

I normally would time my ships and troops to the same turn, but I would not care if I did not get any factories or tech. I would have stolen most of the stuff I wanted already.

 

[Zed-F]

Well, like I said, we're here to learn. I don't have much experience attacking with warp 1 ships and invading with warp 1 transports, either (though more with the latter than the former.) I normally prefer to wait for warp 2-3 transports, if I have a decent starting landgrab. Of course, we didn't get a great landgrab here, and we're not playing a normal game. I think an early offensive is almost mandated by the spirit of the variant rules. If we wind up turning Phyco into a spud rather than a useful part of our empire... we'll chalk it up as a lesson for next time, and get on with the game.

It sounds like you normally only attack once your core can handle taking on the entire rest of the galaxy... i.e. you're really already into mop-up stage, and only need to capture planets to act as range extenders. That will work if you get a start that will give you a decent landgrab... presumably you've got ample practice at maximizing your starting territory with peaceful expansion. Still, sometimes you draw a start where you just can't get enough space that way. What do you normally do if you start out boxed in a corner and can't get a decent landgrab going without going through another empire?

 

[vmxa]

Yeah it is interesting to me to see other perspective and maybe adapt some of the concepts in future games.

Sometimes I will have to do things other than normal. It could be something like crank out a large laser ship or two very early to grab a planet. Maybe even some missile boats.

So as we go along, I am attempting to use the prevailing play style, but it is not going to come to me naturally. That means I will not always do what I am suppose, by those standards.

 

[ToddMarshall]

OK, I got it. Playing now. After this, I will need skipped till the first week of January unless I post otherwise. I'm going to Atlanta the 26th to spend time with Pru, and I have other real life things going on that need my attention the next few days.

 

[ToddMarshall]

As for the trickle attack, one thing I dont think was mentioned. Not only will pop regrow between waves, but if the pop gets low enough, the AI will often send a batch of pop from annother world. If they send 50 transports at it, we could be up a creek.

 

[vmxa]

Why would that bother us, we will have maybe 200 fighters on the planet. The troops will get toasted. Unless they come with a good fleet in that case it won't matter how many troops are sent.

 

[ToddMarshall]

It's only a problem if you plan to move the fighters to attack annother planet

 

[ToddMarshall]

Preturn:

Ok, I think we can hold the poor planet we are attacking with no problem. The Klackons are under dogpile, which should make it even easier.

I tell the home planet to stop with the fighters. Warp 1 fighters are point defense or single weak planet caprute beasts only.

I tell the other 2 core planets that its time to max those factories now and research later.

I add 1 click to terraforming on the western tundra planet. Maybe weed, but I like to keep my pop growing.

I look the Klackons over. I'm not impressed. One thing I wonder if people know is that the Klackons are probably the worst anti spying race in the game. I have no hard #'s to back it up, but tons of imperical evidence. I set budget all the way to 4% on spying.

Figuring the planet we are about to take will need them to get stood up, I send 30 Million more from Fieras.

[1] - I do the retreat shuffle. I bomb 7 million off Phyco. Its 22 million of ours vs 43 milion of theirs at Phyco. We only take out 12 million, leaving them 31 million, It begins to look like bombing was the propper cource.

[2] - I do the retreat shuffle. I bomb 9 million off Phyco

[3] - I bomb 10 million off Phyco. Klackons want peace Fieras Maxes out, allocates 4 clicks to reserves to help stand up western holdings. Dunatis nearly maxes, goes to research - 1 click to finish facts

[4] - We do the retreat Shuffle. Range 6 hits. Our only choice is range 7

I bomb 9 million off Phyco.

Speaking of Phyco, it's 37million vs 8 million at Phyco. We get good rolls and have 27 million survivors... We migh actually overpopulate the planetby a couple million. Oh well. I think we can sneak them off to Rana in time.

Currently its 11 years to build a base, but Reserves and pop growth will alter that drastically. Klackons appear to be sending 36 million warp 1 transports from their homeworld to Phyco... We'll just have to shoot them all down....

I send most of the fighters on to Endoria. Time to take the next planet. We have new planets to harrass err scout, so I send the scouts forward off Vox and Endoria. We'll still be "attacking" them at Kholdan.


[5] - We do the retreat shuffle. We get a steal off the Klackons. Knowing we have a hole in our engine tech, I select Propulsion to get neuclear engines.

Arities maxes out. I feed more reserves to the developing planets.

[6] -

[7] - Class 3 force fields hit. We go for Class V Planetary over Class IV Deflectors. Oh great. The Klackons now have Improved Scanner. Maybe I should have taken computers > I can't see spying being very successful now with our computers gap so I go back down to 0.8%

[8] - Our 119 Fighters arrive at Endoria... Well, when they started there there was 1 medium in orbit. NOW there are 34 mediums, 2 larges and a base... Our fighters cant hack that so we pull out. We're voting.
Humans 5 themselves, Darloks 5 the humans, Klackons 3 the humans, Sakkra 4 for me, Alkari 2 for me, Me 5 for me
With the Grand Fleet of the Klackon Republic at Endoria, I tell the fighters to Try Vox instead. If we can get Vox Scouted, we can send troops and also send our Fleet at Phyco to help if they send the grand fleet over to respond. As yet, I've not made a warp 2 design. Duralloy is due any moment. Also, I'm sure whatever I make would be the exact opposite of what the next player would make, and So I'm just going to let them make what he wants to start his turn.

[9] - We find a planet inhabited by Darloks and guarded by a bunch of mediums. Oh good. Somone else to annoy . We get notice that the HUMANS now controll 12 star systems. Wow. Looks like final war is coming. I dono if we can hack that. I've accidentally let the scouts off Vox and Endoria retreat.... Too damn many places to keep turning fleets arround anyhow. If it excites somone, they can turn thm back arround when they reach Phyco. Phyco now has a base, btw. Most of the klackon grand fleet is headed there.

[10] - We get a theft off the klackons?! Its cop only so its BC II. Yup. Still, that's helpful. Controlled Toxic Hits... I dono what to go for. Spores is our, +30 is redundant since +40 is availavle, Radiated seems weedy since we only have 1 Radiated Planet that we know of, so I go for +40. Klackon transports invading Phyco breathe the vacuum.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/SBB4Christmass.zip

Edit: If the next player doesn't think we could hold Vox, that's fine. At least we can scout it for later and probably bomb off it's production. I've left the other 100 fighters at our recently acquired planet. We'll need something to wax the Heavy Laser Larges and I don't think one base is the answer.

 

[Zed-F]

Sounds like a good turn.

Re: bombing... well since we had already bombed most of the factories off, I guess. Saved some of our troops anyway.

If we do get a shot at Vox, are we likely to be able to capture it with factories intact? Up to the next player to make the call.

Regarding an answer for heavy laser larges... more fighters? Heavy lasers are not that good at shooting down fighters, really. Besides, 1 base might not be able to kill the heavy laser larges, but with Shield III it can certainly stand them off.

Regarding the tech choice, Terraforming +40 sounds right given that we researched Toxic. Terraforming +30 is half that but it won't advance us in the tree, so we'll call Terraforming +40 good.

I think that puts Dathon up.

EDIT: A couple more notes from looking at the save...
- Arietis and Fierias are overspending a bit on Eco. Might want to fix that.
- We can now colonize Rhilus and, from there, Jinga. That will put us in contact with the Alkari.
- However now that we have toxic, we probably want to rebalance our research spending a bit more evenly. Terraforming +40 is an expensive tech and we have lots of catching up to do in other fields.

 

[ToddMarshall]

Regarding the oeverspending on ecco: Sure, adjust it. The game will adjust it itself when it reaches +1 pop though and throw it into the reserves, so not a major issue.

Colonization plan is correct. We just got the tech though, so we couldn't have done it till this very turn.

We definately want to adjust research. Since planetology just now hit, I hadn't done anything with it because, basically, I forgot with my turn being over. Thats one of my "do this before hitting next turn" checks, so it never came up.

About bombing: Load the game up. Click next turn till the final wave arrives. Watch the Klackons successfully defend the planet. IF we wanted the planet durring my watch, we had to bomb it at least once. Bombing it at least once destroys all factories. At the point where all factories are gone, you should just continue bombing it.

Regarding the larges. We have like 120 fighters and a base at the planet. I hardly think we need MORE defense than that. What I said was, I left the fighters at the planet to defend instead of using them on offense because 1 base cant stop 2 heavy laser larges on its own. MIGHT not even hold them off. Remember they do up to 7 and the shielding block is 6. It's probably good enough for a time over victory, but why take the risk?? They couldn't have left till this very turn anyway, as they were needed to shoot down the incoming transports.

- Maniac