Ottoman

[phantomaxl1207]

What do people think of them?

The UA works with CS. It's just there to help in the early game.

One techs Gunpowder and destroys everything. Solid UU. Amazing UB.

The 2 Engineers finally give the it some peacetime use. W/o anyone to attack its not really needed.

Between one of their E&D and the Volley(from the UB) Cannons can easily 200% vs cities. Infantry can easily get +100% too (w/ other benefits -SoZ).

 

[Gothic_Empire]

Does the UA work with sea trade routes?

 

[void_genesis]

I've noticed the AI is very successful midgame as the Ottomans. I think the city attack bonuses may be slightly too strong in their hands, though two games probably isn't enough to be certain. That said it is great to see that once AI starts growing into a conquest threat around this time, though ideally it should be any of the conquest focused types, not the same one every time.

 

[ShadedSkies]

I've noticed the AI is very successful midgame as the Ottomans. I think the city attack bonuses may be slightly too strong in their hands, though two games probably isn't enough to be certain. That said it is great to see that once AI starts growing into a conquest threat around this time, though ideally it should be any of the conquest focused types, not the same one every time.

These bonuses are very kind to the AI. Spamming units and hurling them against city walls is what they do best after all.

But in terms of balance I think they're alright, most warmongers have become absolutely terrifying in CBP. Unless you smother Mongolia in the crib, they'll own two thirds of the world before the renaissance. Sure is a step up form vanilla!

 

[Funak]

In my games the Ottomans tend to build crappy cities all over the continent, end up in borderwars with 4 other AI at the same time and get wiped out, I know this sounds like a onetime thing, but it has happened in all of my 15 games on this current patch (Yes I randomed the Ottomans as one of 7 AI on a standard map 15 times in a row)

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Tanzimat: Completing an International Trade Route grants 100 Science, Production, and Food to the origin City, SCALES. Receive a free Caravansary in every city.

I remember being even satisfied with the 40 SPF per finished TR feeling it was enough to get me to Iron Working for the UB and a rush. You could go straight there or pick up Trade while you are at it.

The Caravansaries help a little with fighting Poverty in new Cities; you'll get Illiteracy instead. You want safe and consistent TRs, yet your Uniques say fight.

They also benefited from the new Tourism changes as they can start pushing Tourism right away.

UB: (Forge) Siege Workshop grants 50% Production bonus to Siege Units and Volley Promotion (+50% vs Cities and Fortified Units). +1 Production from Copper and Iron.

Let's you not worry to much about losing Siege ( on the Defense anyway cause they move slow).

UU: (Musketman) Janissary are still the same, +25% Attack Bonus and +50 HP on Kill.

Solid, a little pricey to upgrade like ~500 Gold (std). Not much else to say

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think they are solid. The first game I played with this mod, I did Ottomans at Prince. I didn't realize they difficulty levels were different. I thought it was the same as vanilla Prince. I found it challenging, but I still did well even though it was supposed to be approximately 3 levels above what I am used to.

The UA is a bit peaky, and easily interrupted. If a barb or a Civ you are at war with kills all your routes, you don't get the UA again until you can set up Trade Routes. I suppose that's similar to Morocco, Portugal, and Venice, but at least their benefits come continuously throughout the Trade Routes' operations. The Ottomans' UA requires it to run to completion.
And therefore, it's peaky. You get lumps of yields every so many turns. You have to watch your Trade Routes to plan how to take advantage of the science or production to top off a tech or wonder.

The free Caravansaries are a subtle but important addition. It opens up your Trade Route options early on and gives you more early Tourism for a Cultural Victory. I had a good income throughout my game.

I don't think it's terrible, it's average, but the weaknesses can be problematic if you're fighting a defensive war. I just don't think it made the Civ fun.

The UU is solid. It was a good UU in vanilla and hasn't changed.

The UB is great, especially in cities where you find a lot of iron or copper. I was never short of siege units.

All in all, I like this version of Ottomans better than in vanilla because I am not a big warmonger. However, it's still more conquest-oriented than I care for.

 

[Der_Zorn_gottes]

The UA is a bit peaky, and easily interrupted. If a barb or a Civ you are at war with kills all your routes, you don't get the UA again until you can set up Trade Routes. I suppose that's similar to Morocco, Portugal, and Venice, but at least their benefits come continuously throughout the Trade Routes' operations. The Ottomans' UA requires it to run to completion.

Yes, I noted that too. Losing a trade route is like a punch in the guts.

I don´t know how to fix it though - I briefly thought about moving the bonus to the establishing of the route, but realized just a few seconds later what a horrible idea that was.

 

[PurpleMentat]

The 'all or nothing' nature of the UA makes for exciting gameplay for some. It puts me off ever wanting to play the Ottomans, but I can see how some would find it appealing.

 

[Funak]

The 'all or nothing' nature of the UA makes for exciting gameplay for some. It puts me off ever wanting to play the Ottomans, but I can see how some would find it appealing.

I like the idea behind it, I haven't played them lately however so I can't tell if it is working properly, I'll put it on my to-do-list.

 

[Funak]

I like the idea behind it, I haven't played them lately however so I can't tell if it is working properly, I'll put it on my to-do-list.

So now I've tried the Ottomans out for a few games and while it is rather hard to analyse the impact of the UA, I'll give it my best choice.

The UA: The free caravansaries are actually awesome, I'm not quite sure if I think they're fun or if I think there could be a better solution, but they are good and they do help a lot(but probably less so than the other free building UAs).
The yields from finished trade-routes, I'm really not so sure about. The impact of that part of the UA is really hard to analyse as mentioned earlier. I thought the +200 Food/production from finishing a trade-route near the end of the medieval era was pretty good, until I inspected the incomes of the city sending the trade-routes (Istanbul) and realized that Istanbul was generating +200 food/turn (after bonuses and so on) and around 150 production/turn. I don't remember what my science per turn was at, but getting one turns worth of food and production felt kinda underwhelming.
I also lost over half my traderoutes before they could finish, by sanctions, war declarations and so on. I didn't get any of the wonders related to extra trade-routes but I'm not sure they would have made much of a difference.

All in all it is really hard to judge the Ottoman UA, under optimal circumstances it is probably really strong, but there are so many situations that are outside of your control that can mess you over.


The UB: The more I've gotten to use the Siege Foundry the less I like it, I was really psyched about it from the start. Faster cannons, stronger cannons, what's not to like? Well, the thing is that the gain from the Siege Foundry are actually pretty low (at least in my games), I tend to build A LOT of siege weapons assuming I have iron, but even with that, all you're getting is maybe a turn or two off every built unit and one free promotion. A promotion that you can get with a 30 experience investment. I mean I build the building in every city, naturally, the forge is nice and the siege Foundry is a forge but comparing the bonuses on the Siege Foundry with the two other unique buildings that buff produced units really leaves the Siege Foundry feeling weak.

Siege Foundry(compared to forge): +1 production +50% production while building siege-units, free early promotion to siege-units.

Ikanda(compared to Barracks): +unique promotion tree for melee/gunpowder units, +free unique promotion for melee/gunpowder units. (Now I'm kinda weirded out because the civpedia is really empty on this page, but I think it gives extra exp and extra crime-reduction as well, not sure)

Dojo(compared to armory): +5 experience, + unique promotion on melee/gunpowder units, +4 yields on horses/iron

Sure on paper the Siege Foundry looks somewhat equal (at least to the Ikanda) but free stuff for melee-units is going to be a lot more useful than free stuff for siege-units as siege-units both costs iron and are less likely to get killed (meaning you're less likely to build more of them). The fact that the promotions given by the other two buildings are unique also makes them a lot more powerful, sure volley is one of the best siege-weapon promotions, but it just requires one rank of accuracy to get.


The UU: The unique unit isn't bad by any means, but it is probably the weakest of all the musket-replacements, at least from my perspective.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

On the UA, it triggers per TR and you can have 4 (6 with Petra and Colossus) by the end of Medieval. Don't forget that you are getting some nice GPT like a Trade Civ and a little bit of Tourism.

ON the UB, it's a still Forge and not a Barracks or an Armory, so every City can produce Siege. Siege Units are pretty fragile to Horse Units.

On the UU, just how strong are other Musket UUs anyways?

 

[Funak]

On the UA, it triggers per TR and you can have 4 (6 with Petra and Colossus) by the end of Medieval. Don't forget that you are getting some nice GPT like a Trade Civ and a little bit of Tourism.

I know it triggers per TR (and you can't really balance it on the offchance that you can get specific wonders), but as mentioned over half my trade-routes fails for one reason or another and I really consider that number to be pretty fair, because that's about the same value I've gotten in all Ottoman games.

ON the UB, it's a still Forge and not a Barracks or an Armory, so every City can produce Siege. Siege Units are pretty fragile to Horse Units.

Well, the production-bonus and the promotion from the siege foundry is only going to be useful in cities with barracks/armory, as you're not going to purposely make less experienced siege-weapons out of convenience, especially with iron being limited.
So I think comparing it to a barracks or an armory is fair, all it does outside the production thing is +1 production.

On the UU, just how strong are other Musket UUs anyways?

Pretty strong. For example the American UU ignores terrain-cost, starts with a level of drill and gains golden age points from killed enemies.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It would be nice if the bonuses from Trade Routes were per movement like Portugal's Great General and Great Admiral points or if you could be prorated the bonus if your trade routes are unfortunately ended early.

 

[Kolaris]

I think that would make the UAs too similar. Ottoman's should be higher risk, higher reward. That reward just isn't high enough to offset the risk at the moment, going by Funak's comparison to his per-turn yields.

 

[Funak]

It would be nice if the bonuses from Trade Routes were per movement like Portugal's Great General and Great Admiral points or if you could be prorated the bonus if your trade routes are unfortunately ended early.

I think that would make the UAs too similar. Ottoman's should be higher risk, higher reward. That reward just isn't high enough to offset the risk at the moment, going by Funak's comparison to his per-turn yields.

These tests weren't even done on deity, I'm expecting that there the AI is even more erratic, making trade-routes even less likely to finish.

And yes, copying the Portugal or Morocco system is not a solution.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Okay. Then can the reward be prorated if the Trade Route is prematurely terminated? For example, if the unit is intercepted 3/4 of the duration of the Trade Route, you get 3/4 of the total reward.

 

[Gazebo]

I think that would make the UAs too similar. Ottoman's should be higher risk, higher reward. That reward just isn't high enough to offset the risk at the moment, going by Funak's comparison to his per-turn yields.

I'm toying with the idea of expanding the Ottoman UA bonus to give a flat amount of all yields instead of just food/production/science.

G

 

[Funak]

I'm toying with the idea of expanding the Ottoman UA bonus to give a flat amount of all yields instead of just food/production/science.

Could also give them some percentual bonus somehow, or a instant WLTKD if a trade-route finishes or something like that. There are a lot of options to expand on that UA without scrapping it.

 

[Funak]

Might as well bring it up here like I did in the Egypt thread, I mean the existing issues here never got resolved in the first place either.

I don't think free buildings are a very good idea, it kinda works the Carthaginian UA mostly because harbors are pretty damn useless for early starts unless you're playing an island-map, in which case both Carthage and Indonesia are overpowered. It saves you a few points of gold on road maintenance, but that's it.


Anyways all the problems from before still remains, but now I'll add that because of consistency with with my post in the Egypt thread I think the free caravansaries should be removed in favor of something else.